Talk:Rolling block

Suggesting merge into Action (firearms)

This is a topic for Action (firearms) and should be merged into it.Digitallymade (talk) 12:19, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

• Strong oppose, it requires a summary section at Action (firearms) but rates its own article.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 17:21, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. Deserves a standalone article. Nothing wrong with having a summary at (Action firearms) that points to here. Miguel Escopeta (talk) 21:19, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Case and hyphen

A snip from a book about the Remington rolling-black action being named the "Remington System"

A rolling block is a generic action description, which is why the article title doesn't have it capped. And when it's used as a compound modifier, e.g before rifle or action or design, it would typically be hyphenated, to clue the user to read it as a unit (i..e. not the default non-hyphenated parse of rolling block rifle as a block rifle that is rolling). But when I made such fixes, I got reverted by an IP whose expertise is deep, I'm sure, in antique firearms, but perhaps not so deep in grammar and style. Per MOS:CAPS and MOS:HYPHEN, we should really be fixing these. Other ideas? Dicklyon (talk) 02:41, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Apparently Remington named this the "Remington System"; by 1956, Hatch says it "came to be known as the Remington Rolling Block Rifle", which I'd say is a historian capitalizing what's important to him (per WP:SSF), not evidence of proper name status. If there are retrospective model names (not that generic term for a bunch of models) that cap it, that's OK, but most uses, like in this article, are generic. Dicklyon (talk) 17:18, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

On his talk page, the IP offered a bunch of URLs as evidence for why he needed to revert my fixes. So I looked at them and annotated them to make it clear that we should look to their sentence usage, which is mostly lowercase, not just their titles. These:

1. [1] – A forum (not a WP:RS). Yes, has "Remington Rolling Block Rifle" and "Remington Rolling Block rifle" and "Remington Rolling Block military rifle" and "Klamath Indian Reservation Rolling Block" in sentences.
2. [2] – Magazine article, yes, with "Remington Model No. 5/1902 Rolling Block rifles" and "Remington Rolling Blocks" and "ammo for the Rolling Block" in sentences.
3. [3] – Editorial with "the Remington rolling block was just as popular" and "The 'rolling block' nomenclature was never officially used but became a popular nickname" and "U.S. Army shunned the Remington rolling block". Not proper name.
4. [4] – NRA article with "Remington Model 1871 Rolling Block pistols". Capped in the context of a specific model designation. Probably there's more to this article that I can't see, as a non-member. this other article there has an example of "rolling block" used generically and also "Remington Rolling Block rifle". So, mixed.
5. [5] – I can't see the article. "the Remington Rolling Block Action Rifle" in the one-sentence teaser (copied from the title-case title?). Clearly over-capitalized.
6. [6] – I can't see the article. "Remington's Rolling Block" in the one-sentence teaser.
7. [7] – No sentences available to check, but lowercase "rolling block" in the table.
8. [8] – NRA Museum. "Remington's No. 1 Rolling Block action rifles were available in many calibers. The rolling block action consisted..." and "Remington Single Action Army revolvers, rolling block rifles and pistols...". So maybe the first is a specific model name, but clearly they support lowercase generic.
9. [9] – NY History site, gallery label. "Remington rolling blocks were among the breech-loading rifles and carbines that..." Lowercase only.
10. [10] – Grand Rapids Museum. No use in sentences, so no evidence either way.
11. [11] – Royal Museum Greenwich. "Remington rolling block pistol. The pistol is half-stocked with a flared butt (no cap) secured by steel strips back and front. The lock is a Remington rolling block in two parts." Just lowercase.
12. [12] – Maine memory network. No sentences, but description "Remington rolling block rifle, 1864" and keyword "rolling block". Just lowercase.
13. [13] – Museum of Technology. "The Remington Rolling Block rifle produced... The rolling block is one of the strongest actions... Rolling block rifles were made for smokeless powder cartridges. A rolling block is a form of firearm action..." Capped only in the context of "Remington Rolling Block", lowercase otherwise.

And there are also tons of sources that hyphenate. Just not these. Dicklyon (talk) 21:58, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

With hyphenated "rolling-block" as adjective before system, breech, action, design, mechanism, invention, etc., here are a few in books: [14], [15], [16], [17], (p.136), [18], [19], [20], [21]. Dicklyon (talk) 22:11, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

@Dicklyon: Thank you for inviting me. I looked through your notes and although I disagree with it, I nonetheless respect your decision as you clearly have much more knowledge of the fine, minute details of the English language along with the rules and regulations of Wikipedia. I've already gone ahead and made some of the adjustments based on your recommendations. Anything not relating to the company and model "Remington Rolling Block" has been lowercased along with a hyphen "rolling-block". Feel free to look over my work and make anymore corrections you may deem appropriate. [22] [23] [24] [25] 2600:1000:B05E:E107:F113:E420:D98:9394 (talk) 23:07, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll have a look. Dicklyon (talk) 23:30, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

I made some more changes. Take a look. In particular, I can't agree that "Remington Rolling Block" is a model; rather it's a "family" that includes many models, different calibers, over quite a few years. And the name "Rolling Block" (capped) seems to have come in long after they were antiques, so it's a family named by historians, not by Remington, who used the name "Remington System". We should include that some place. I've left "Remington Rolling Block" in a lot of places, but not where it modified "action" and such. Dicklyon (talk) 00:02, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

@Dicklyon: I suppose what you're saying makes sense and I went ahead and put mentions of the "Remington System" in a couple places. Feel free to edit or adjust as neccesary. [26] [27] 2600:1000:B05E:E107:A88F:220E:7155:27B (talk) 01:35, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Hi, I am not at all certain if I would agree with the capitalisations. "Remington system" does not appear to be catitalised in the majority of cases - see n-gram. As for "Remington rolling[-]block [rifle]", the analysis at the start of this thread doesn't tend to support capping. See also [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] From all of this, while "Reminton rifle" and "roling block" peaked in usage around the Civil War and again a bit later, "Remington rolling block [rifle]" appears to be a relatively modern construct. It begs the question of how these rifles/carbines were named/designated when they were purchased and used by the US and other militaries? Onomastically, we generally don't capitalise noun phrases that are descriptive. "Remington rolling block rifle" is descriptive. An exception would be if it is intrinsically part of a model name - eg "Remington Rolling Block Model X". But "Remington Rolling Block" is a term that significantly post dates when such rifles were made by Remington. "Remington rolling-block" appears to be a generic term that describes a family of firearms made by Remington with a rolling breechblock. I think that the answer lies in determining how these rifles were known/designated when they were purchased and in use. This critical information appears to be missing from the WP record. I wasn't successful in getting hits for various combinations of "Remington pattern" or "Remington model". Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 03:25, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

• Use lower-case since it is not a proper name and is not near-uniformly capitalized in sources. Use a hyphen when it's a compound adjective, like we normally would. Why are we even having a thread about this? We have a manual of style, so just follow it.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:06, 21 December 2021 (UTC)