Talk:Ronald Syme

This level-5 vital article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Classical Greece and Rome Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome, a group of contributors interested in Wikipedia's articles on classics. If you would like to join the WikiProject or learn how to contribute, please see our project page. If you need assistance from a classicist, please see our talk page.Classical Greece and RomeWikipedia:WikiProject Classical Greece and RomeTemplate:WikiProject Classical Greece and RomeClassical Greece and Rome articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

University of Oxford

	University of Oxford portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject University of Oxford, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the University of Oxford on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.University of OxfordWikipedia:WikiProject University of OxfordTemplate:WikiProject University of OxfordUniversity of Oxford articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
	This article has been automatically rated by a bot or other tool because one or more other projects use this class. Please ensure the assessment is correct before removing the `\|auto=` parameter.

New Zealand Mid‑importance

	New Zealand portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject New Zealand, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of New Zealand and New Zealand-related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.New ZealandWikipedia:WikiProject New ZealandTemplate:WikiProject New ZealandNew Zealand articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Biography: Science and Academia

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article is supported by the science and academia work group (assessed as Mid-importance).

Schools

I don't know if this is a mistake or not: it currently reads that Syme attended the School of Lit. Hum. Is that a very old-fashioned expression, or was it written by somebody not familiar with Oxonian terminology? A School at Oxford is your course of study and more specifically the set of examinations taken at the end of that course (today "Finals" is taking over in common usage, but traditionalists and a slightly older generation say "Schools"). Thus one might say, "John got an Upper-second in Schools". However, I assume that what Syme read was actually Greats. It might be better to say, "Syme then went up to Oriel, where he took a First in Greats", or "He read for the Final Honour School of Lit. Hum." (if they called them Final Honour Schools in those days). But as I said, I shan't change it because maybe back in Syme's day this was actually an expression, e.g. "John's at Oxford attending the School of Modern History"; "Jane attended the English School". However, it does rather sound like the original writer imagined that there was a department at Oxford called the "School of Lit. Hum.", rather like other universities might have a School, Department, or Faculty of Classics etc. In modern usage, one reads a School or takes a School, but I've never heard of attending a School.--Oxonian2006 10:50, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Seems to me that the classics faculty now refers to itself as 'Classics' rather than 'Lit Hum' as it did in my day. A couple of questions: a) I thought Greats was informal rather than the actual name of the degree? b) What does the grey book now say?. 84.9.161.17 16:05, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, well it may be that they do call themselves Classics, but when this year's results were posted at the Exam Schools I'm pretty sure the list said "Literae Humaniores", together with "Final Honour School" or "Second Public Examination". The main point is, was it ever correct to say that somebody attended the School that he or she read? If somebody asked, "What did you read at university?", would it be correct to reply, "I attended the Honour School of XYZ"? I don't think so. You would say, "I read..." or "I took..." or "I sat..." "...the Honour School of XYZ". (Or even just, "I did XYZ"). So I was checking whether the article should be changed in this respect.--Oxonian2006 16:44, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I changed the opening line from "the preeminent classicist of the 20th century" to "an eminent classicist of the 20th century." Syme was certainly one of the most notable classicists of the last century, but the preeminent? Fraenkel, Housman, Page, Shackleton Bailey, Charles Segal, Roger Mynors, and many others come to mind. Perhaps "the preeminent New Zealand classicist of the 20th century" would be better.--Cassian 15:20, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is a point that needs clarification: the text says Syme served in the Belgrade Embassy DURING WWII. As Belgrade was occupied by the Germans in April 1941, the Embassy was evacuated and the Yugoslav king went into exile to London. So Syme could have served only from 1939 to 1941, not DURING the whole war. Somebody please investigate the exact chronology. Did he go to Istanbul (which was neutral) immediately after Belgrade?

"During" is ok. It doesn't mean" "throughout".
 Syme was a magnificent prosopographer, he knew who everyone in his period was, even if hardly mentioned at all.   Esedowns (talk) 16:08, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Syme's view of Augustus and his regime

The article states that Syme made a major change to the way historians viewed Augustus, by showing that his formal "return to the republic", its values and its political paraphernalia (consulships, senate etc) was just a careful, thin veneer to hide an essential autocracy and defuse the issues caused by Julius Caesar (educated Romans hated the idea of kingship in any form). This is the modern consensus on how Augustus changed the game, but surely it is considerably older than Syme's book. I think this kind of analysis goes back well into the 19th century or even before. Even Tacitus was perfectly aware that the outward forms of a republic were no more than a shell and that Augustus had navigated his way to get rid of the many outdated elements of the republican system without stirring up a new civil war or loosening his grip on power. - The distance between the formal framework and the brute realities of monarchic power and control of the city of Rome is also a major theme of Robert Graves' Claudius novels, which preceded Syme's The Roman Revolution by a couple of years. Strausszek (talk) 23:16, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Ronald Syme. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

Added archive https://archive.is/20120630023402/http://lasfloresdelmarinero.blogspot.com/2010/05/colonial-elites-rome-spain-and-americas.html to http://lasfloresdelmarinero.blogspot.com/2010/05/colonial-elites-rome-spain-and-americas.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 15:00, 27 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Citations

Hi all, I've added several citations on the authoritativeness of the work on Sallust. I've included what I think are reputable journals in the field. If you know of any others that warrant inclusion do not hesitate to add them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.24.158.11 (talk) 20:02, 4 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]