Talk:Saimaa

Comments

This article contains false info. Saimaa is the fourth largest lake in Europe, not fifth. Saimaa's area is 4,400 km², not 1,147 km². Source, in Finnish unfortunately: http://www.ymparisto.fi/default.asp?contentid=117975&lan=FI. ("pinta-ala on noin 4 400 km2" = area is approximately 4,400 km2) --213.186.243.208 23:07, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

• However, 4,400km² is used for the .group. of lakes ("Iso-Saimaa"), rather than the actual one. --User:89.58.29.28 14:40, 21 Nov 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the article says it is sixth largest in Europe. Lake Inari also happens to be sixth largest in Europe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.225.110.63 (talk) 02:09, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I've seen a more accurate figure of 4,377 km² (1,690 sq mi) for Greater Saimaa in the Statistical Yearbook of Finland (don't remember what year, but I suppose it can be found in any edition); this is often rounded to 4,380 or 4,400. The 1,147 km² (443 sq mi) is for Saimaa proper. That, does Greater Saimaa qualify as a single lake by international standards, I don't know. Also, there are three types of freshwater seal, not two: the Saimaa Ringed Seal, Ladoga Seal and Baikal Seal; of these only the last one is a true species, the other two are relict populations of the otherwise marine Ringed Seal. --Anshelm '77 23:12, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Numbers and names about Saimaa inconsistent

1. If the surface area of this lake is 4400 km2 and the water volume is 36 km3, then the average depth must be 8.2 meters and not 17 meters! Either the average depth or the water volume is wrong, or both are wrong. This is basic math.

2. According to the Finnish "Järviwiki" (= lake-Wiki) at the "Greater Saimaa" is called "Suur-Saimaa", and its surface is only 4279 km2, not 4400 km2. This article obviously is about the "Suur-Saimaa". However, even Finnish people disagree about whether Saimaa means the whole "Suur-Saimaa" or just a part of the "Suur-Saimaa".

3. The largest basin of the Suur-Saimaa is the "Saimaa" (some say "Etelä-Saimaa" = "Southern Saimaa") with a surface of 1377 km2, an average depth of 10.8 meters and a water volume of 14.8 km3.

Allgaeuer (talk) 14:29, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

References

Some confusion about scope

I've seen some confusion about the scope of this article in the edit history, and partially in the text of the article also; before I fixed it today, the infobox had a different surface area value (1147 km²) than the lead paragraph (4400 km²); both disagree with the most reliable number I've found, which is "427,946.4 hectares" (4279 km²), published in the Järvi-meriwiki, "Lake and sea wiki" – which, although it is a wiki, is also maintained by the Finnish Environment Institute, who perform (or commission/oversee) surveys of the area and publish them there; it seems very reliable, at least on the part of the following measurements.

The highlighted area is the Greater Saimaa lake system.

The confusion arises because the unadorned name "Saimaa" applies to different bodies of water, which are nevertheless sub- or supersets of each other:

1. The entirety of the lake, 4279 km², from Lappeenranta and Imatra to Joensuu, Varkaus, and Mikkeli; this entire body of water is also called Suur-Saimaa ('Great(er) Saimaa') or Iso-Saimaa ('Big/Large Saimaa'). This is the lake highlighted in blue in File:GreaterSaimaa.gif (approximately: the Ukonvesi sub-lake is missing).
2. The southern main open area of the lake, south of the straits of Puumala, to the northwest of Imatra, which has an area of 1377 km²; this area is also called Etelä-Saimaa ('South Saimaa'), Pien-Saimaa ('Small Saimaa'), or, very confusingly, Suur-Saimaa ('Great Saimaa'). (In File:GreaterSaimaa.gif, this can be seen by removing the top half of the image; the remaining part of the lake is approximately the extent of South Saimaa.)
3. A sub-region of the southern region of the lake, bounded somewhere around the Kyläniemi peninsula. Authors using this term will then call the entirety of the southern region Suur-Saimaa, while the rest of the lake is then called something like the "Vuoksi basin" (Vuoksen vesistö), or split up into differently-named lakes.

This confusion is illustrated by the amount of articles the Finnish Wikipedia has with a Saimaa-containing name: there's fi:Saimaa, (contentiously) referring to concept number 1 above; fi:Varsinainen Saimaa, "Saimaa Proper" referring to No. 2; fi:Suur-Saimaa ("Large Saimaa", No. 1), fi:Iso-Saimaa ("Big Saimaa", No. 1), fi:Pien-Saimaa ("Small Saimaa", No. 3), fi:Etelä-Saimaa ("South Saimaa", No. 2 and No. 3), and fi:Ylä-Saimaa ("Upper Saimaa", parts of No. 1 found above Savonlinna).

The current hydrological understanding, however, is that despite its shape, the lake is indeed one very large, very spindly, lake – however, there's plenty of room to quarrel. (I suppose it's one of those cases where definitions tend to break down, similar to trying to find the world's shortest river, or defining whether something is a hill or a mountain. The argument also goes into culture, local history, and politics – that the entire region is one big lake is a relatively recent concept, while for centuries for instance Orivesi and Puruvesi were considered lakes in their own right.) The main selling point for the Greater Saimaa lake being one lake is its water level: despite on a map looking like a series of lake basins connected by short rivers, the water level of the lake is remarkably level, descending only 11 centimeters from Joensuu to the outlet at Imatra (a straight-line distance of 160 km, and considerably further following the actual topology, 230 km by my estimate).

The Järvi-meriwiki partitions the entire lake into nine sub-regions, which I've arranged in a tree-like form:

• (South) Saimaa proper, 1377 km², the southern basin, and biggest of the subdivisions: has the outflow of the Vuoksi river at Imatra, and the Saimaa Canal at Lappeenranta; connects to the other regions at Puumala and via Louhivesi. It is itself subdivided into further waters, which I won't go into here.
  • Ukonvesi from South-Saimaa via the Louhivesi water up to Mikkeli. 24 km².
  • Pihlajavesi from Puumala to Savonlinna in the north-northeast and Punkaharju to the east-southeast. 713 km².
    • Puruvesi from Punkaharju northwards. 416 km².
    • Haukivesi from Savonlinna to Varkaus. Contains Linnansaari national park. 560 km².
      • Enonvesi to the northeast of Haukivesi; the most island-heavy region, with no large basin. Contains Kolovesi national park. 197 km².
        • Pyyvesi connecting Enonvesi in the west to Orivesi in the northeast. 30 km².
          • Orivesi to the south of Rääkkylä. 601 km².
            • Pyhäselkä to the north of Rääkkylä up to Joensuu. 361 km².

(We could probably do with a simplified and annotated map, showing the major localities and hydrological names, but omitting or simplifying the various channel mazes and island groups.)

What I propose here is that this article is about the entire lake system, all 4279 km² of it, rather than just the southern sub-region. (The Finnish Wikipedia also does this: fi:Saimaa is the whole thing, and it has a hatnote directing to fi:Etelä-Saimaa, the southern sub-lake.) The article could do with some expansion, and especially the Topography section might contain a tree like the one I wrote above. We could also use an annotated map, maybe a simplified SVG diagram (or at least with a higher-resolution satellite photo), omitting smaller place- and water names, while marking major cities and boundary-defining locales. I may get around to this at some point, but if someone makes it before I do, go ahead ;). — oatco (talk) 23:44, 22 February 2023 (UTC)