Talk:Saraswat Brahmin

Skip to table of contents

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Saraswat Brahmin article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1: 90 days

The use of the contentious topics procedure has been authorised by the community for pages related to South Asian social groups, including this page. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be sanctioned.

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

This article is written in Indian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, analysed, defence) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Ethnic groups High‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to ethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ethnic groupsWikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groupsTemplate:WikiProject Ethnic groupsEthnic groups articles

High

This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

WikiProject Ethnic groups open tasks:

Here are some open WikiProject Ethnic groups tasks:

Meta-tasks:
- Place the {{Ethnic groups}} template on the talk page of articles within the scope of this project.
- Resolve the disparity in importance rankings among different ethnic groups
Articles about ethnic groups that currently have issues needing resolution:
Start an article:
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Article requests

Feel free to edit this list or discuss these tasks.

India Low‑importance

	India portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject India, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.IndiaWikipedia:WikiProject IndiaTemplate:WikiProject IndiaIndia articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article was last assessed in April 2015.

Clarify

This discussion has been disrupted by block evasion, ban evasion, or sockpuppetry from the following user:

Acchuta Sharma (talk · contribs · block log · spi)

Comments from this user should be excluded from assessments of consensus.

The Saraswat Brahmins originating in Balochistan were called sindhur and were considered a low caste. They have a legend of origin related to Lord Ramachandra (not the same as Parashurama), who could not find a priest in Balochistan and applied a Tilaka on the head of some Mleccha. Jürgen Schaflechner cites the historian Rowe who states that such "low ranking Brahmins" formed a symbiotic relationship with Vaishya castes such as Khatris, Lohanas, etc. who were trying to raise their varna status - which in turn would benefit the Saraswats as well. For this purpose, certain religious texts were written during the British Raj era.^[1]

~~Relevant editor please try to address my concerns regarding the above statements if possible,~~

1.Is this applicable to all the saraswats?(If not why it is there in main introduction?) 2.Is this generally accepted origin of saraswats?(Most accepted one is SaraswatI river basin migration then what's the importance of this?) 3.Is there any historical document for this?(If yes please share the relevant materials) 4.Do saraswats were present in Balochistan in any historical documents?(If yes please share the historical document related to that) 5.The RAMA story seems like primary source without even base of Ramayana.Did Rama every visited Balochistan?Do they used word mleccha in tretayuga?

Even if you are feeling the same ambiguity please proceed towards neutral source or deletion. Regards, Acchuta Sharma (talk) 10:31, 20 January 2024 (UTC) Acchuta Sharma (talk) 10:31, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Acchuta Sharma The article is confusing between Gaud Saraswat and Saraswat Brahman people. 223.178.208.198 (talk) 14:03, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Jürgen Schaflechner (2018). Hinglaj Devi: Identity, Change, and Solidification at a Hindu Temple in Pakistan. Oxford University Press. pp. 59–60. ISBN 978-0-19-085052-4.

Expecting Clarification for the source with different context

This discussion has been disrupted by block evasion, ban evasion, or sockpuppetry from the following user:

Acchuta Sharma (talk · contribs · block log · spi)

Comments from this user should be excluded from assessments of consensus.

Dear Editors, I have added clarification tag for some statements specified in specific scenario (Different Context) which has been portrayed in general context to this page (This community) as a whole. So being Wikipedian I have executed my rights to ask for clarification. Expecting some support from your end in this process. Please don't revert the edits, all the tags will be deleted after discussion with the respective editors. Regards, Acchuta Sharma (talk) 07:05, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Review the below Racial statement

This discussion has been disrupted by block evasion, ban evasion, or sockpuppetry from the following user:

Acchuta Sharma (talk · contribs · block log · spi)

Comments from this user should be excluded from assessments of consensus.

"Saraswat merchant families during the Portuguese rule of Goa also were involved in trade with Portuguese colonies around the globe including in the African slave trade. In the 19th century also, French slave merchants came to Goa and contacted the Portuguese and Saraswat Brahmins who sold them African slaves."

~~Seems like this is racial against one country and ethnicity. Ethically we should think of deleting it. Dear Editors I am Expecting your inputs. Acchuta Sharma (talk) 07:24, 22 January 2024 (UTC)~~[reply]

Please note that Wikipedia is not censored! Still, in case you have objection, please wait for other editors' response/views. Placing a 'Clarify' tag is not a solution, as explained in my edit summary. Read WP:REMOVAL & WP:CONSENSUS! You need to achieve consensus for the same! Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 08:46, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Recent edit warring /POV pushing using 'Clarify' tags: January '24

This discussion has been disrupted by block evasion, ban evasion, or sockpuppetry from the following user:

Acchuta Sharma (talk · contribs · block log · spi)

Comments from this user should be excluded from assessments of consensus.

Hey Acchuta Sharma.. each and every tag has been removed after providing clarification in the edit summaries! Moreover, you are aware of the discretionary sanctions on such articles. You have been explained that Wikipedia is not a general forum for asking random questions; WP:NOTAFORUM! Discuss here in case of any further concern; else you may be blocked from editing. Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 08:38, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

~~@EkdalianDifferent meaning exists for POV pushing,without any proof hope you may not use that word in the future. Allegation needs strong proof.POV-For your reference.~~

~~Regards, Acchuta Sharma (talk) 08:47, 22 January 2024 (UTC)~~[reply]

Read WP:SPA! Ekdalian (talk) 08:48, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Complete Overhaul

This discussion has been disrupted by block evasion, ban evasion, or sockpuppetry from the following user:

Rodrigus0 (talk · contribs · block log · spi)

Comments from this user should be excluded from assessments of consensus.

Hi, I've been going through this and related pages such as Saraswat cuisine, I think they all need a massive overhaul. There are a few reasons for this.

1) The page is about Saraswat Brahmins, but 70-80% of the content is about Shenvi Brahmins of the western stripline coast of India (who call themselves Goud Saraswats). The river Saraswati has been identified with the Ghaggar Hakra in North India, and the Brahmins of Punjab, Jammu, Kashmir, Himachal and Sindh are Saraswats, with the former two regions exclusively having Saraswats.

A huge chunk of this page is simply unsourced information or one liners with no context, such as

Punjab and Jammu[edit]

In Punjab and Jammu region, Saraswat Brahmins have been traditionally vegetarian.

Mohyal Brahmins stopped practising priestly duties.^{[verification needed]}

Advaita saints such as Gaudapada^{[verification needed]}, grand-teacher of the philosopher Shankaracharya;

The claim above about Gaudapada almost certainly seems false, since there is simply no original text in which Gaudapada calls himself as such, and since he is a popular philosopher, many different communities try to claim him.

The quality of this page needs to be improved tremendously, since it is a not a page on the Konkani GSB/Shenvi caste, but on Saraswat Brahmins. I will over the course of this week and next, be adding a lot of information and edits with proper sources in line with Wiki policy on citations. These edits will try to balance the page out and give it some organizational structure. I propose a new index for the page along with a removal of all unsourced information.

Let me know how this sounds, @Ekdalian Abh9850 (talk) 22:55, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Abh9850, I agree with you. You may work on the article; my only point is, if you add information (e.g. the Saraswati river being identified with the modern Ghaggar-Hakra River), please make sure that you add proper reliable source. Thanks for your initiative! Ekdalian (talk) 06:06, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Right, definitely so, nothing not in line with Wiki policy will be added, I'll work on it bit by bit Abh9850 (talk) 08:43, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This definitely needs an overhaul, given that many (most?) of these communities are not Brahmins except by their own reckoning. Hölderlin2019 (talk) 14:02, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

~~@Hölderlin2019These are one of the panch gaud Brahmins mentioned properly in all the scriptures.Don’t come to the judgement as per your wish. Rodrigus0 (talk) 17:19, 26 March 2024 (UTC)~~[reply]

@Rodrigus My wish? What wish? Why would I care any which way? If you can demonstrate that a given community has an attested tradition of transmitting whichever Vedas in whichever recension, or have a srauta praxis, etc., is accepted by other Brahmin communities as Brahmin, and so on... why would I object? Hölderlin2019 (talk) 00:22, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Hölderlin2019It is not like acceptance by other Brahmins ,It is “SHATAPATHA BRAHMANA” which tells weather the community is brahmin or not.Mandan Mishra is from this community.He became first point-off of Advaitha monastery(All south smartha bow to the same Sringeri swami).Giving general statement like “given that many (most?) of these communities are not Brahmins except by their own reckoning.” is not appreciated! Rodrigus0 (talk) 02:40, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Rodrigus To be clear, I'm not denying that there exist Saraswat Brahmins. I don't think anyone has ever disputed that, say, Kashmiri Pandits are Brahmins. It's just that there are an awful lot of communities that assert that they are various sorts of Saraswat Brahmins starting in the 1850s or so. Hölderlin2019 (talk) 04:37, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Hölderlin2019That will be narrow information from one/few source/authors perspectives it need not to be true.Keeping away mythology even in 1400-1700,historical documents have recorded influx of Kashmir pandits to today’s Goa/konkan.Shilahara recording mentions saraswat Brahmins migration to konkan.1850s EKI-Beki is regarding uniting all saraswats.Hope if required I can cite the documents regarding this.I replied as the message initiator here has mentioned “Gaud saraswat/shenvi” but both aren’t same.Shenvi Brahmins were from Shenvi paiki clan and migrated from Bengal(eat fish).GSB was united name for all saraswats came from north.So giving complete importance to shenvi seems disregarding sastikars(Bommons) and Pednekars along with Bardeshkars and balavalikars.

~~I accept you regarding this in only one instance where bengal vaidyas claim to be saraswat not accepted by any of the Saraswat Brahmins. Rodrigus0 (talk) 06:02, 27 March 2024 (UTC)~~[reply]

[Schaflechner2018-1] Jürgen Schaflechner (2018). Hinglaj Devi: Identity, Change, and Solidification at a Hindu Temple in Pakistan. Oxford University Press. pp. 59–60. ISBN 978-0-19-085052-4.

[1]