Talk:Scholes, Greater Manchester

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County of Lancashire

User:Joshii, if I can refer you to the map on Association of British Counties and also Friends of Real Lancashire you will see that Scholes is in fact in the historic county of Lancashire which has existed from around 1295. In 1972, someone in Whitehall decided that Greater Manchester (and also Merseyside) would become administrative counties (different to historic counties). Greater Manchester was subsequently abolished in 1986 and Scholes is directly administered from Wigan Town Hall.

Furthermore, on the Greater Manchester page it refers to GM being made up of areas from Lancashire (and others). Scholes is in the historic county of Lancashire.

Therefore, I request that you stop changing a perfectly good and factual entry to your POV.Darkieboy236 (talk) 22:30, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Association of British Counties and Friends of Real Lancashire are not political groups, they are just a bunch of old people with backwards attitudes. Scholes is part of Wigan which is part of Greater Manchester. The abolision was of the Greater Manchester Council, not the county. Scholes was a part of Lancashire before 1974 but it is now part of the ceremonial county of Greater Manchester. Please do not attempt to accuse me of POV for making factual edits. ^┌_Joshii^┐_└^chat_┘ 23:04, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is why the term "historic" was used in the article. There is no point in abusing the FORL to force your POV Darkieboy236 (talk) 23:08, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think you will find there is a Wikipedia based group which will agree my edits are not based on POV but the "FORL" are a fully POV group. You have no political standing. ^┌_Joshii^┐_└^chat_┘ 23:11, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(<-) Guys, this old issue is precluded in our policy WP:PLACE and our project guideline WP:UKCITIES. There is a long-standing consensus that we use the modern county system as a primary reference frame; "historic counties" can (or rather should) be mentioned, but not assert that they continue to exist.

I've toned down some of the wording per this rationale. --Jza84 | Talk 23:25, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is fine: Joshi seems to be removing any reference whatsoever of Lancashire and moved Up Holland High School out of the extant Lancashire to Greater Manchester and won't state the primary county as being Lancashire. This is against the previously mentioned (somewhere) conventions. Darkieboy236 (talk) 23:30, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I checked a map and Upholland High School is on the border of GMR/Lancs. It has a Wigan address which is part of Greater Manchester but for some strange reason has a Lancashire website address. ^┌_Joshii^┐_└^chat_┘ 23:33, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if the LEA is Wigan, then the school is in Greater Manchester, period. I understand that Orrell, Greater Manchester is in... Greater Manchester. It would actually be on the GM/Merseyside border too AFAICT. --Jza84 | Talk 23:35, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It has a Lancashire address because it is in Lancashire County Council. It has a Wigan address because that is the address the Royal Mail assigned to it. FYI the side of the street it is on has a different name to the other side of the street administered by Wigan MBC...Sandbrook Road and Oxhouse Road...even the Tarmac is a different colour. Very few people at the school I believe would argue against it being in Wigan, Lancashire. Wigan is a Lancastrian town and the Queen is HM The Duke of Lancaster is Wigan.Darkieboy236 (talk) 23:41, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The school is not in Wigan LEA, but in West Lancashire LEA. This is my school and I live on the street!Darkieboy236 (talk) 23:41, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It must be a pretty bad school if they teach you Wigan is in Lancashire. It is on the border and has a Wigan address, Wigan is part of Greater Manchester, I comprimised on saying it is on the border. ^┌_Joshii^┐_└^chat_┘ 23:44, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)Great - if the LEA is W. Lancs, then it is within Lancashire.. That clears that up then. Wigan is being used for the addressing as part of the WN postcode area, although of course this doesn't correlate to county boundaries in the slightest.

However, re the Duke of Lancaster, take note that the territory under the Queen in this capacity was altered by the Local Government Act 1972 - it extended the land to encompass ALL of Greater Manchester and Merseyside, including those parts that were historically within Cheshire and Yorkshire. The terms of the Dukedom have no effect upon the status of the metropolitan and non-metropolitan counties of England other than ceremonial arrangements. --Jza84 | Talk 23:46, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

When GM was artificially created in 1974 Orrell, Wigan was cut in half by the artificial boundary. This left Up Holland High in Wigan but not the admin MBC of Wigan. This was/is a problem in the area for children who live across the road from the school but are not meant to cross the border to get to it, but are meant to travel a number of miles to a school in Wigan LEA. This is what happens when areas are artificially created. A further complication is that Up Holland High School is NOT in Up Holland!Darkieboy236 (talk) 23:49, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Joshi, it's not very professional to insult the standard of education. If you go to the centre of Wigan and ask any Wiganers what county they are in I am confident that the large majority will say Lancashire. This is because, in people's hearts, they are Lancastrians.Darkieboy236 (talk) 23:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All counties have artificial origins; they do not appear in nature. I think this issue has drifted off topic and would be better considered closed. Wikipedia is not a forum for idle discussion and speculation. --Jza84 | Talk 23:53, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Artificial in the fact that someone drew the borders on a map, as opposed to won and lost in war, developed organically over time, etc. Darkieboy236 (talk) 23:55, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What Wiganers feel in their hearts has got nothing to do with this. You are describing Lancs as if it is a nation or a race. It is still there but with smaller boundries. You need to get over it. Greater Manchester exists in the same way Lancashire does no matter what FORL or the ABC say. ^┌_Joshii^┐_└^chat_┘ 00:00, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)Greater Manchester developed just as organically as any other county; with roughly a century of discourse from inhabitants, county councils, committees, commissions, reports, politics, economics and so on - just take a look at Greater Manchester's history section. Contrawise, Renfrewshire (a "historic county") was "drawn up" in an instant from Lanarkshire by a greedy nobleman - there was absolutely no "organic" growth. This type of misappropriation courted by groups like ABC is exactly why people misunderstand the realities of how these boundaries came to be, and how they will change again. Anyway, this issue appears over, I'm off to write some content. --Jza84 | Talk 00:05, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Scholes is an area of the town of Wigan, which is in Greater Manchester. Orrell is a district of the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan, also in Greater Manchester. Orrell 'borders' only West Lancashire, not Merseyside. Man2 (talk) 18:12, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Orrell constituency borders "Merseyside". Darkieboy236 (talk) 19:46, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean the Makerfield (UK Parliament constituency)? --Jza84 | Talk 20:54, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, I was referring to the council ward (used constituency in error)...although Makerfield does border the former Merseyside (all branding was removed a great number of years ago from any road signage with its abolishion). Darkieboy236 (talk) 21:18, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Correct,the 'Council Ward' of 'Orrell'(which includes Billinge Higher End) does border Merseyside, however the district of Orrell itself does not as it is separated from the village of Billinge (in the Met Borough of St Helens) by Billinge Higher End . Thanks Man2 (talk) 13:00, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The larger area of Billinge (Higher End, Chapel End and Winstanley) were split in 1974 with seeminly continually shifting borders. I have managed to live in three administrative counties since I was born without moving house! Billinge Chapel End is, as far as I am concerned in Wigan, even though it is administered by St. Helens. You can tell it is really in Wigan by the rugby tops the locals support. Darkieboy236 (talk) 15:37, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I must agree with the above. Billinge Chapel End certainly is a odd case. The place lies within the Metropolitan Borough of St Helens, has a St Helens phone code and a Wigan postcode. Is split mainly between United fans, Liverpool fans and Wigan fans and a great many support Wigan rugby. Man2 (talk) 12:58, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Areas like Greater Manchester generally, in my opinion, have little allegiance from the local population. Telephone and postal codes don't adhere to county or town or city borders. You can also have the 01942 code (if on cable) and 01695 code in Billinge and are related to the location of the exchange that serves your property. As for postal codes, they are based on the sorting office and the area it covers. If the sorting office is close to a border, then it can cover more than one town area. As for Lancashire, it came into existence in the 12th century. 800 years later someone decided to split it up and destroy heritage. For me, and many more Wiganers, Wigan is still and always will be in Lancashire. Darkieboy236 (talk) 13:11, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine Darkieboy236, but just be mindful to keep that off Wikipedia. We have a naming convention by way of WP:PLACE, and expect all users to work within the spirit and to the letter of that convention. --Jza84 | Talk 15:43, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]