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could someone please add a schooner glass article?
Is the Étoile really a schooner ? I am asking this because she has a square sail on top of her foremost mast; does this change anything ? Rama 16:16, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
A schooner with a square sail on top of her foremost mast is a topsail schooner, most definitly a schooner. (unknown user and date)
Question - what is it called when a ship has 3 masts - first is square rigged, others are not? The Australian "schooner" Svanen has such a rig but I can't find this type listed on wikipedia. Pics here http://www.svanen.com.au/
SpookyMulder 11:48, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
- The definition of "schooner" is clear when talking about a two masted ship--if the foremast is shorter or equal to the main (aft) mast, and it's primarily fore-and-aft rigged, then it's a schooner; if the shorter mast is to the rear, it's either a ketch or yawl depending on the position of the aft mast relative to the rudder--a ketch sets the mast forward of the rudder, a yawl aft. A single square rigged topsail is acceptable on a schooner. Anything that has square sails and fore and aft sails might be considered a hermaphrodite; see for example Hermaphrodite brig. A ship with a gaff rig on the rearmost mast (called a spanker) is still considered square rigged, and wouldn't qualify as a hermaphrodite. The 3 masted ship you are talking about would probably be a barquentine. scot 15:39, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Some of the vessels listed as "famous" schooners don't even appear to be notable, let alone famous. Should we arrive at some sort of criteria for what constitutes a "famous" vessel to avoid this turning into listcruft? For that matter, is there a page elsewhere with such guidelines? Susan Davis 21:40, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
- I'm paring the list down to a bare minimum and moving the rest to an off-page List of schooners. Most of these boats don't warrant mention on this page, but apart from List of tall ships (which is for currently active vessels) and Category:Schooners (which is for boats that have an article already), this information isn't compiled elsewhere. Presumably a list will prove useful. --Fullobeans (talk) 02:39, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
The listing for Red Witch -- and the vessel's own web site -- claims that she's a topsail schooner, but she's not equipped with yards for carrying a square topsail. Is there some fact about her that's not apparent that makes her a topsail schooner? Susan Davis 21:42, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Advantage of the schooner rig?
How does this rigging compare to the classical "ship" rig? What are its advantages? The article doesn't go much beyond just listing what 'makes' a schooner. It would be much more useful if it would actually address how the schooner rig impacts the perfomance of a ship. MCSmarties 12:48, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
- Part of the definition of a schooner rig is the fore-and-aft aspect, which differentiates it from older two-masted designs which where primarily square rigged. The advantages of a schooner over the equivalent square rigged brig or a hermaphrodite brigantine have to do with the pros and cons of the rig. A square rigged ship offers better downwind performance, and far inferior upwind performance; the large number of small sails on a square rigged vessel don't require the material strength of large fore-and-aft sails, but require more crew to handle. Now, the question is, since the discussion of performance is in no way unique to the schooner, what's the best way to organize the articles? Maybe there should be an article comparing and contrasting the rigs, with a link to that from this and other articles where it would be of use--otherwise the same information would need to be replicated in numerous other places, such as, in this case, brig and brigantine. scot 13:54, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
- As I understand it, a schooner (or any other fore-and-aft rig) is more efficient when the wind is abeam. Schooners were therefore much in demand for coasting work and offshore fishing. Square rigs or mixed rigs are more economical for ocean crossings, though this can yield to special circumstances: the start of World War I and commerce raiding in the North Atlantic meant that a single successful Atlantic crossing by a schooner would turn a profit on the construction cost. J S Ayer (talk) 13:56, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
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Paragraph is wrong
"Modern schooners may be Marconi also known as Bermuda, rigged. In Bermuda, such schooners had appeared by the early 19th century, and were known as 'Ballyhoo schooners'. Some Bermudian schooners of this period are historically referred to as Bermuda sloops, despite having a schooner rig. Some schooner yachts are Bermuda rigged on the mainmast and gaff rigged on the foremast."
"Bermuda rig" has been known since the 17th century. There is no such thing as "schooner-rig". Schooners can have any sail plan they want in any combination. What makes a schooner is that they always have two or more masts, with the foremost mast shorter or equal length as the aft mast(s).
Spirit of Bermuda a schooner?
Scoon a Scots word?
Having recently read in The Last Fish Tale by Mark Kurlansky that supposedly "scoon (is) a Scottish word meaning "to skim lightly across the water."", and never having heard the word in my puff, I thought I'd check out what Wikipedia says about the derivation of schooner. It seems this theory has wider currency as it is also listed here, the only problem being that I don't think such a word exists. It isn't in any Scots dictionary that I have, or in the online Dictionary of the Scots Language. That a Scots word is believed to be the derivation would appear to be citable but the existence of the word itself is apparently not. The apparently false theory is maybe worthy of inclusion because of its currency and I've tagged it as dubious but it would be better to note the questionability in the text itself. My dilemma is, do I actually need a source which says the word does not in fact exist or is its non-existence sufficient to allow me to note it without this being regarded as OR? Mutt Lunker (talk) 22:25, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- The OED has (in it's somewhat extended discussion of the origin of schooner, a mention of the Scots (Clydesdale) scon - "to make flat stones skip along the surface of the water". Seems to have been used as scoon in Gloucester, Massachusetts where it gave the name to schooner. DuncanHill (talk) 22:41, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- Here's the OED discussion of the etymology:
Of uncertain origin; recorded early in the 18th c. as skooner, scooner; the present spelling, which occurs only a few years later, may be due to form-association with school, or with Du. words having initial sch. The word has passed from English into most of the European langs.: Du. schooner, schoener, G. schoner, schooner, schuner (recorded 1786), F. schooner, schoaner, Da. skonnert, Sw. skonare, skonert.
The story commonly told respecting the origin of the word is as follows. When the first schooner was being launched (at Gloucester, Mass., about 1713), a bystander exclaimed ‘Oh, how she scoons!’ The builder, Capt. Andrew Robinson, replied, ‘A scooner let her be!’ and the word at once came into use as the name of the new type of vessel. The anecdote, first recorded, on the authority of tradition, in a letter of 1790 (quoted in Babson Hist. Gloucester, p. 252), looks like an invention. The etymology which it embodies, however, is not at all improbable, though there seems to be a lack of evidence for the existence of the alleged New England verb scoon or scun, ‘to skim along on the water’. Cf. Sc. (Clydesdale) scon, ‘to make flat stones skip along the surface of the water’, also intr. ‘to skip in the manner described’ (Jam.). The early examples afford strong ground for believing that the word really originated about 1713 in Massachusetts, and probably in the town of Gloucester. The evidence of two or three old prints seems to prove that the type of vessel now called ‘schooner’ existed in England in the 17th c., but it app. first came into extensive use in New England.
- Good work, thanks! On this basis, I've found in the Concise Scots Dictionary, alongside the more conventional meaning of a sweet cake "scone &c; scon(n)... vt 1 strike the surface of (something) with a flat object, crush flat with a slap 19-, now local Ork-Ags. 2 slap with the open had, smack (esp a child's bottom) 18-, NE." I guess this is related but I wouldn't want to travel in a boat moving in this fashion!
- Do you know if the Clydesdale referred to is a publication or indicating a localised usage in Clydesdale (i.e. roughly Lanarkshire)? I think Jam. must be John Jamieson but I can't find mention of it here online (ought to be vol II p362). Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:34, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- I think the Clydesdale mentioned is the Dale of the Clyde. I'll see if it expands the abbreviations anywhere and get back to you. DuncanHill (talk) 23:38, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- Jam. is "Jamieson, John: An etymological dictionary of the Scottish language 1808, Supplement 1825 (1879–82)" DuncanHill (talk) 23:42, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks - see my link above to an online version of Jamieson, which doesn't appear to have an entry for scon. Just thinking how to rephrase the text in the article, seeing as we haven't actually found it spelled scoon per the the article and Kurlansky. "scoon being close to scon, a Scots word..." maybe? I'll take off the dubious tag in the meantime though. Would you be able to ref it from the OED? Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:51, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd Edition 1989. Oxford University Press, Oxford. Editors John Simpson and Edmund Weiner. Volume 14, page 641.
- Done. Found the entry in Jamieson, in the 1825 supplement rather than the 1808 original. Mutt Lunker (talk) 01:32, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
- Since the Dutch built and used these vessels long before any Englishman or Scot, wouldn't the Dutch name 'Schoener' be the likely source for the word? If it wasn't there would certainly be an older, proper Dutch name for it, but as far as I know there isn't.
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Cruz del Sur
My father left me cartons of his life style, yachting as the Captain of many yachts, for people in America, South of France and UK. The Cruz del Sur, apparently sailed from the UK, to the Bahamas....... I have a log book. Along with that I have an undated newspaper cutting of the Hall family, Meg, Patrick and son Ian sailing this schooner from the UK to Bahamas the Hall family apparently had a sailing school in Newton Ferrers Devon. I am interested in this event, as a historian and caretaker of my father's paperwork. I would like to know how my father came to be in possession of the log book, and his association with the Hall family. It might be something that they would like.
My father was also the Master of Errol Flynns Yacht Zaca during the 50's. I have the log book dating from 1946, and many photos and communication between Errol Flynn and my father, lots of lovely photos of the yacht also.
I have many other log books from the ships, etc., that dad worked on over a period of 25 years. I also have a large collection of WWII photos taken in the Atlantic arena....dad was in the RNVR, I have a load of poems and words of songs, typical sailor songs.