Talk:Sebastian Vettel/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Continuous edits by Mujioll regarding statement in lead

The user Mujioll has persisted in changing the statement 'regarded by some as one of the greatest drivers in the history of the sport' to either 'regarded by fellow and former drivers' or 'regarded by many as one of the greatest drivers in the history of the sport'. This is clearly the editor pushing their own point of view through original research, more specifically reaching a conclusion not stated by the sources.

None of the sources offer opinions from fellow or former drivers, much less explicitly state that it is a widely held belief, that the subject is one of the greatest drivers in the history of Formula One. Indeed, several of the sources repeatedly added by Mujioll do not even address the subject of 'greatest driver in history', and merely serve to compare the subject to drivers on the current grid grid at the time of publication.

The sources do indicate that indeed some pundits have speculated whether the subject rank among the all-time greats, but even those who think he does acknowledge that "[u]ntil he ... goes up against a rival of that quality in a comparable car, this debate will never go away". Perhaps in years to come, once he has retired, more debate will arise and the subject will be widely considered, by many, as one of the greatest Formula One drivers in history, but currently, the sources available simply do not support that. 'Regarded by some as one of the greatest drivers in the history of the sport' remains the most accurate reflection of the sources. Formulaonewiki (talk) 18:08, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

The user has again added another source which quotes an individual (Bernie Ecclestone)'s opinion and taken that to mean it is the view of 'many' people that the subject is one of the greatest drivers in the history of the sport. This is clear example of the way in which this user reaches a conclusion not stated by the sources. Formulaonewiki (talk) 18:20, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

How about a comprise, like often regarded as one of the greatest drivers in the history of the sport, similar to what we have for Fernando Alonso? 192.159.178.212 (talk) 18:29, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

I don't believe this is a compromise, as the sources here do not suggest Vettel actually is 'often regarded' as one of the greatest drivers in the history of the sport. Only on a few occassions by half a dozen or so pundits or journalists, mostly around the time he won his fourth title, has the subject of 'greatest in history' been broached. Alonso, on the other hand, has throughout his career and particularly since his retirement at the end of 2018, often been referred to and regarded as one of the greatest drivers in the history of the sport. Formulaonewiki (talk) 18:32, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

To me this looks like a debate of when does some become many, no user is pushing a WP:POV nor WP:OR, there are sources which say he is a great, this is a question of which word to use to reflect how many people believe a certain point of view. Personally I would always use some as most implies more than half, as for "often regarded", again that implies more than half. I personally don't think there are enough sources to suggest "often regarded" or "most" but then most sources about how great he is compared to others are unlikely to be released until he retires as we have seen with other drivers, if need be we can visit the discussion then. SSSB (talk) 18:43, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

If you look at the sourced material for Fernando Alonso, you see that its a few pundits voicing their own opinions like you believe the sourced material states. Aswell as this, some sources are about FA being the best on the grid at the current time, which have been removed for Vettel. The past seasons of Formula 1 (2017, 2018) have been about two of the "Greats" of formula 1 fighting for the championship in LH and SV, which suggests both these drivers are held in the same regard. Possibly a compromise such as the one used for FA could be used, However by saying 'some' implied most don't believe he is one of the greatest, which is not the case looking at the number of sources. Like previously mentioned, while the career is still active it will be up for much debate until his entire career has been shown. Mujioll (talk) 18:46, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Just because Fernando Alonso includes a source about him being the best on the grid at the current time, does not mean this article should also. If the source does not support the statement, it should not be there on either article. I'm not sure either how you reach the conclusion by comparing Hamilton and Vettel that they are held in 'the same regard', merely because both have been described as 'greats', it is a non sequitur. Formulaonewiki (talk) 19:03, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure how this would be sourced, but if you google sebastian vettel formula 1, before you click the link to the official f1 page, it says in text "The youngest F1 Championship winner. An all-time great. It's Sebastian Vettel – and this is his story." Anyways, I am just an anon who saw the edit warring and would like to see it stop. However, I do think the wording some somewhat diminishes the significance of the statement, implying not many people think that way. 192.159.178.212 (talk) 18:48, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

We should be focusing on articles, reports, discussions and publications from reliable sources, not just inferring from headlines. Formulaonewiki (talk) 19:06, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

I also do not believe that some diminishes the significance of the statement in any way. If we look to the literal definition, it generally implies at least some people hold that view, and that it is a view which is propagated to an extent. That, I believe, is what can be logically deduced from the available sources, and from a wider look at sources online. Formulaonewiki (talk) 19:20, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

The literal definition of 'some' says that at least a small amount of people believe so, however clearly more than a small amount of people regard him in this fashion. 'Often regarded' is probably more towards the real amount of people and sources that put him in this category. If you look at other sources online and have to 'deduce' that It is more widespread than 'some' then that should be reflected in the article. Plus, the previous seasons being named as the 'Battle of two greats' does have a profound effect on the status of Vettel being on a comparable level to Hamilton who, on his article, is 'Widely regarded' as one of the greatest. Mujioll (talk) 19:33, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Firstly, your argument does not work: As we have both now said, 'some' means at least a few people. 'More than a small amount of people' is at least some people.

Secondly, you have provided no sources which claim to title entire seasons as 'the Battle of two greats' as you have said. Even so, because two drivers are referred to as being 'great', it does not follow (or have a 'profound effect' as you claim) that they are both held in equal esteem by the majority of people. Hamilton's article states that he is 'widely regarded' as one of the greatest drivers in the history of the sport because there are reliable sources cited which say so, not under the justification that he was once spoken about in the same sentence as another 'great'. Regardless, 'other crap' arguments are pointless and not revelant here. Formulaonewiki (talk) 21:16, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

How about just 'regarded as one of the greatest drivers in the history of the sport' or maybe 'considered as one of the greatest drivers in the history of the sport', so we don't have to use 'some' or 'many'. 192.159.178.212 (talk) 19:37, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

I think 'Regarded as' is completely viable. Mujioll (talk) 19:43, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. This is not a solution to the problem. 'regarded as' or 'considered as' implies, similarly to 'regarded by many', that this is a widely held belief, which the sources do not demonstrate. Additionally, in any case, both lack attribution and are vague/imprecise. Formulaonewiki (talk) 21:16, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

If you was to look at the sources for Alonso and Hamilton, you will see that they're very particular with being a certain critics viewpoint, and don't strongly back the fact that it's a wildly held belief. I don't think you will get many sources that specifically use those words until the driver retires. The sources used for Vettel are of a very similar nature to sources that back up the same quote for other people, which if its sufficient for 2 other articles which say roughly the same thing, it should be sufficient for this one too. Mujioll (talk) 21:31, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Other crap isn't necessarily relevant or helpful in resolving this issue. However, regardless of whether it is appropriate or not, the sources cited at Lewis Hamilton are fundamentally very different. Two of the articles don't just mention 'greatness' in passing, but are entirely dedicated to substantiating the claim that Hamilton is amongst the greatest of all time. The main difference however, is that half of the articles cited don't just claim that Hamilton is among the greatest drivers in the history of the sport, but that it is widely accepted that he his among the greats. This is the key distinction which you have continually failed to grasp. Furthermore, the discussion of his place among the greats is already settled and widely accepted to the point where debate has progressed to whether Hamilton is in fact the greatest of all time. To put it simply, even if your other crap example were relevant, the sources demonstrate a clear difference in the extent to which both drivers are considered to be among the greats, and the statement/claim should accurately reflect that. Formulaonewiki (talk) 22:01, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Additionally, there are comments regarding Hamilton's status in the sport from direct rivals, which are generally few and far between in comparison to journalistic descriptions of grandeur. To name only a couple of example: his lifetime rival and team-mate, Nico Rosberg described him as 'one of the best of all time' while Fernando Alonso said Hamilton was in the top five greatest Formula One drivers ever. There is not a similar range of praise from rivals and fellow drivers and world champions regarding Vettel. Regardless, this comparison is not helpful. Formulaonewiki (talk) 22:13, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

https://www.formula1.com/en/drivers/hall-of-fame/Sebastian_Vettel.html, the official f1 website, also mentions Vettel as one of the all-time greats. This could be added as another source. 192.159.178.212 (talk) 22:21, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

There is no need to use language like that, and yes, it is relevant as we are talking about the same statement for different articles. It's not like were "discussing" two completely different matters, it's the same matter. The sources are on a very similar level. It seems like you're Incapable of accepting that. Ecclestone stating "Vettel is probably the best we've had", Mark Webber, "Those three (Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso) are on a very, very, high level. And if I had to pick one, I'd probably pick Sebastian". David coultard, "Whichever way you cut it, he has to be considered a great. There is no compelling argument to leave him off an all-time list." It's the same for Seb as it is for lewis. Mujioll (talk) 22:23, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Oh heavens, don't take it so personally. It's a popular term for arguments to avoid on wikipedia. You are totally ignoring the points I'm making and responding with totally unsourced content which doesn't even match the sources I've explained exist for Hamilton. You are reaching a conclusion not stated by the sources and clearly pushing your own POV that you believe Hamilton and Vettel are both as good as each other. You haven't provided any coherent argument otherwise. It's tiresome. Formulaonewiki (talk) 22:36, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

I Don't think its very professional to use such wording when discussing an article. I've gone back and sourced the comments that I have put in my previous post, just so you can't say that I'm reaching my own conclusion. Nowhere did I state Hamilton was on the same level as Vettel, you clearly seem personally attacked by that. This isn't my POV and I have now provided a 'coherent argument' and will adjust sources in the article accordingly. You're constant hatred and inability to see what is right in front of your eyes is childish and pure unjust. Mujioll (talk) 22:46, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

'Don't think it's professional'? Take that up with whoever coined the term, not me. You literally stated 'It's the same for Seb as it is for lewis (sic)'. Nobody is making this personal other than yourself, making conjecture about my 'hatred and inability' when you haven't presented your argument in an even remotely coherent manner. Stop restorting to ad hominem and personal comments. This is about the subject, not about you or I. You have not demonstrated that the sources reflect that many people hold the opinion that he is amongst the greats, nor have you found any from rivals of his, only retired drivers turned pundits. The Mark Webber quote is absolute pointless and irrelevant here, it is a comment about him against others on the grid, nothing to do with the 'greats'. Stop making useless arguments with unhelpful sources. Formulaonewiki (talk) 23:07, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

To add another opinion, I think since the official f1 website states Vettel as an all-time great (see link above), we can just say regarded as (without by many or by some). I also don't think opinions from rivals necessarily matters more than from other sources. 192.159.178.212 (talk) 23:17, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Despite the fact this IP editor looks very much like sock puppetry, they also seem to exhibit the same trait of not listening to any previous points raised in the discussion. That phrasing lacks attribution and is vague/imprecise, and instead implies, similarly to 'regarded by many', that this is a widely held belief, which the sources do not demonstrate. Formulaonewiki (talk) 23:28, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

I am not a sock puppet. I just wanted to suggest alternatives, even if they have their own problems. Alain Prost's article says "is considered as one of the greatest F1 drivers ever" (without by many or by some), so I just thought it may be a suitable alternative here. 192.159.178.212 (talk) 23:39, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Once again, I find myself saying the same thing over again. That implies, similarly to 'regarded by many', that this is a widely held belief. Which in the case of Alain Prost, it surely is and therefore is appropriate on that article, but not here. Formulaonewiki (talk) 23:45, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

I've provided several quotes from respected people within F1, including his former teammate, who if anything would not favour his main rival throughout the most successful part of his career. Countless sources have been put forward that 100% backs my argument. When I stated its the same for both, I'm saying that they both have highly respected drivers putting forward their views for claiming 'greatness', not suggesting that they're as good as eatchother. I don't see how you can say that i'm 'Attacking' you, I'm just perplexed that you are still arguing against respected sources. Mujioll (talk) 23:20, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Why is it so difficult for you to understand? The Mark Webber quote does not support your claim, it is a comment about him against others on the grid and nothing to do with the greats. Nobody is denying that the other sources provide evidence that some people consider him among the greats, but they do not demonstrate that many people regard him as among the greats of the sport. I'm not arguing against sources. Yet again, you are being utterly incoherent. I am pointing out your total misrepresentation of those very sources. Neither have I claimed you were 'attacking' me, so I don't know why you put that in quotation marks. You seem to misquote me in the same way you misuse your sources. Formulaonewiki (talk) 23:28, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Wow so now you're trying to claim that I'm being a 'sock puppet.' Goes to show how much you're trying to deface me. Again if I go back to the other articles that state the level of the driver, the sources don't claim that many people believe they're in that bracket. I'm not being incoherent at all but by saying i'm using Ad hominem is saying i'm attacking you. Mujioll (talk) 23:37, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Once again, you assume far too much and totally misinterpret plain text. (This is becoming a theme here). I never claimed you were. I merely pointed out the peculiarity that an inactive IP editor suddenly engages in discussion, and replies in tandem with yourself. It is totally correct to label your comment as ad hominem, you began questioning my motive, saying 'you clearly seem personally attacked by that', which is both incorrect and not relevant to the discussion. Formulaonewiki (talk) 23:45, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

The main problem is that you're not seeing that I've put forward countless sources that do display a wide consensus among respected drivers and journalists that he's among the greatest. For some reason, according to you, you need to see the specific words that it is widely accepted, which nowhere is seen in other articles for examples. Mujioll (talk) 23:50, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

By 'countless' you mean three. One of which I have demonstrated to be irrelevant, and the other two present the opinions of two people. I never required you find the specific words. Once again, you are assuming and completely misrepresenting plain text (It's getting very tedious at this point). All I've asked is whether or not you can demonstrate that it is a widely held belief of many people that he is considered among the greats; something which you have yet to do. Formulaonewiki (talk) 23:53, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

I don't see how the webber quote is irrelevant as its not about him against other drivers as you suggested, it's about who he believes is the best on the grid. I've presented sources from two other people, however along with the already sourced articles that are implemented into the Vettel page, it shows that he is without doubt considered among the greatest. I don't if you need to see every quote by every person related to F1 to satisfy your needs, however I think it has been demonstrated that more than enough people believe that he is among the best. Mujioll (talk) 00:00, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Maybe English isn't your first language. The 'grid' refers to the drivers racing in Formula One at that time. Therefore the Webber quote is not relevant as it does not concern the subject's place among the greats of Formula One, only the drivers on the grid at the time. I literally can't spell it out any clearer. My point still stands, two sources does not constitute the conventional definition of 'countless' and you are yet to demonstrate it is a view held by the many. Unless you are able to do so, stop repeating the same thing over and over again and either chose another line of argument or let others give their opinion. Formulaonewiki (talk) 00:05, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

English is most certainly my first language. By saying that he is the best on the current grid, it ranks him higher than the likes of LH and FA, two of the people who have been cited to be among the greats. There are more than two sources, like I said there are already ones that are implemented into this article that backs the claim. And however many times I have mentioned this, in LH and FA articles, nowhere do the sources say that its a view held by many. I seemingly have to repeat myself because you refuse to accept what's has been laid out in front of you. Mujioll (talk) 00:12, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

One quote about a driver's ability from three years ago joined in conjunction with other reliable sources about two other drivers' status among the greats of the sport does not result in a reliable source demonstrating that Vettel is among the greatest. That is original research, and a very tenuous one at that. Try improving your argument, not repeating it over and over and ignoring any evidence that is counter to your point of view. (NB Could you please attempt to format your replies according to standard discussion guidelines). Formulaonewiki (talk) 00:20, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

I don't think we are any closer to getting this matter resolved. There are at leat 9 different sources that have been provided that back the statement in the article, more can be provided but when does it get to the point where it becomes ridiculous. The reason for repeating it over and over is due to the fact that you keep refusing to accept the facts in the sources. Mujioll (talk) 08:18, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 June 2019

Add reference to personal life section, sourcing marriage. https://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/27015385/french-grand-prix-diary-vettel-shows-wedding-ring-hamilton-skips-media-day Dufenschmirtz (talk) 08:48, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

 Done SSSB (talk) 09:15, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

Adding each result to career section

Even though the page contains a template about its "excessive amount of intricate detail", each of Vettel's results in qualifying and races are added in his "F1 career" prose section. Is it not better to create a breakaway article in "Motor racing career of Sebastian Vettel" (or something like that; see Fernando Alonso) or to just remove a lot of redundant information and simply list a few of his results along with some background details (see Lewis Hamilton or Michael Schumacher)? In 20 years, when Vettel has retired, I can't imagine anyone interested in simply reading all of Vettel's results in a season without any major background stories. What do you think? WA8MTWAYC (talk) 16:34, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Formula One career of Sebastian Vettel would be better (like with Hamilton, if it was racing career then most of this would be gone) but the listing of every result is exactly the problem (this would still be a problem in an article dedicated to just his career). It needs serious stripping back.
SSSB (talk) 16:40, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree. My first option would be to simply have a massive cut in the prose (it's already over 250k bytes!), as like you said, you would face the same problem when creating that breakaway article. I'm willing to help reduce its length (when I have the time), but I'm not experienced in writing a solid F1 driver article (only football-related stuff). WA8MTWAYC (talk) 16:50, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

I've tried to reduce a lot of prose. It's still quite large but it's a good start. Please let me know what you think. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 15:03, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 November 2020

At the end of the 2019-2020 section, please add that his podium at the 2020 Turkish Grand Prix was his first podium since the 2019 Mexican Grand Prix. Sunnyvale5109 (talk) 14:40, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. I realize this is evident from the table further down in the article, but if a published source hasn't called this fact out as noteworthy of mention, the Wikipedia article shouldn't either. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 16:01, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 February 2021

change aston martin mercedes to Aston Martin Cognizant F1 Team2409:4073:4E84:FE12:6488:1C58:6680:E61D (talk) 10:42, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

 Not done It is contrary to practice and convention to use the entrant name in the infobox and prose. We instead use the commonname (without the sponser). "Aston Martin Cognizant F1 Team" is the entrant name.
SSSB (talk) 10:50, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Activist/-sm(s)

On the relevant section, we could add that he convinced a mid east gp organiser to use sustainable jet fuel in its craft. 41.58.251.174 (talk) 18:52, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

If we have a source, sure. SSSB (talk) 12:11, 8 April 2022 (UTC)