Talk:Serbian war crimes/Archive 1

This is too much!

Just compare German war crimes with this! This article is written in such disgusting, Serbs-must-die POV, that i never saw in those more then 4 wiki years something like this. It looks like Serbs committed worst war crimes in the history of humanity. Also, i am inviting user:Mladifilozof to start constructive communication with me, and numerous other editors regarding his one-sided POV editing, or i will be forced to ask for the arbitration, as all other methods has failed. --Tadija (talk) 22:05, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

I am always for constructive communication. An editor who adds a POV tag to an article needs to explain the issues behind the tag's insertion, pointing to specific issues or problems. I am waiting your explanations and proposals to make this article better and more NPOV. Also, German war crimes is not good article. I expect this article to be far more better.--Mladifilozof (talk) 22:48, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

The problem is what you mean by "better". FkpCascais (talk) 04:02, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

To meet good articles criteria.--Mladifilozof (talk) 01:31, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

This is utterly ridiculous and total nonsense. This article clearly aims to promote the strongest possible anti-Serbian propaganda there is as fact. This article makes so many ludicrous claims, such as Serbia aiming to create a Greater Serbia for 100 years nonstop, while repeatedly ignoring the fact that the Kingdom of Serbia turned down the offer made by the Entente to get a Greater Serbia, but instead opted for Yugoslavia. Draza Mihailovic's Chetnik forces were multi-ethnic, and included very large Bosnian Muslim components and Croatian members, and totally ignores American OSS reports showing zero evidence whatsoever of Draza's Chetniks under his direct command committed any war crimes or collaborated with Axis forces. It was also shown communist double agents within the UK fabricated report after report on the actions of the Chetniks and Partizans, which were used as fact. This article also pretends that Bulgaria made no attempts to Bulgarise Macedonians and uses only one source, and any Serbian actions were attempts at reversing the Bulgarian and Greek attempts at turning Macedonians towards their respective national identities. There was no "Chetnik Supreme Commander" position and this writer clearly makes up or uses terms and phrases incorrectly or wartime propagandistic ones. The part on Draza's trial is only 4 lines in length, and completely ignores the massive controversy it caused i the United States, and large scale protests of solidarity and the controversy of not allowing American witnesses to stand trial in support of Draza.

When it comes to the 1990s, this article also ignores any and all background to the conflicts. It also pretends that the causes for the outbreak of the wars were entirely the fault of the Serbian Socialist Republic while ignoring everything Tudjman and Izetbegovic did in order to destabilise Yugoslavia. Tudjman went on record to state that there would have been no war if Croatia did not want one. It continues to ignore the testimony of nearly every single UN commander, including LGen Satish Nambiar, MGen Lewis MAckenzie, Gen Phillip Morillion, et al. The vast majority of UN reports testify that Serbs were not the number one party that committed crimes, and this writer ignores those reports and favours the small handful that neatly fits his/her narrow, bigoted, ignorant, racist, viewpoint and agenda.

Continuing with the same lack of detail, and ignorance of background events, the section on the Kosovo war doesn't even mention ANY background whatsoever, and starts with events right in March of 1999. It doesn't even state that a civil war had been ongoing by the KLA since 1998.

Let's not forget its attempts at showing LOCAL state propaganda, which was of a far more limited scale than that which could be found in Croatia, or with the Bosnian Muslims. It ignores that during Milosevic's trial, he got the mayor of Dubrovnik at the time to admit that the first destroyed building in Dubrovnik was the Serbian Orthodox church.

Time and time again, select reports that number in the minority with the same viewpoint being against Serbs is used. It speaks of this incredible Serbian propaganda machine when of all the groups in the Yugoslav wars, the Serb faction spent by far the smallest amount. Even to this today, the American Albanian lobby spends 40 million USD a year towards its PR efforts, and the Serbian American lobby spends 100 000 per annum.

This article is of terrible quality, poorly written, there are repeated grammar and spelling mistakes strewn about the entire article, and worst of all, it is anything BUT neutral. "Montenegro was occupeid part of Norhern Albania", being a complete "sentence", is one clear example of this article being an incoherent rant attempting to make it sound like all Serbs are genocidal baby killing monsters. This person is either attempting to state Montenegro occupied parts of Northern Albania (which Serbia did in an attempt to get access to the Adriatic), or that Montenegro used to be a part of Northern Albania and is to be considered occupied Albanian territory. Either way, it's a disgusting lie. Czar Reyad (talk) 01:51, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Correction: Socialist Republic of Serbia, not Serbian Socialist Republic. Czar Reyad (talk) 03:15, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Split

Without being willing to discuss the listed incidents in detail, I wonder what crimes commited by forces of the Serbian Kingdom have to do with Incidents in the 1990ies. Putting them together takes these events out of their historical context and creates a new context, which gives the (surely unintended) impression that war crimes are something "typical" for "Serbs", what would of course be nonsense. -- Seelefant (talk) 23:50, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Its because of one specific editor that for some obscure reason is doing his best to put together, even if not connected, all "crimes" done by Serbs (I think if there was a report of some Serb accidentally while driving killing in an accident someone, he will also include it). FkpCascais (talk) 03:59, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Maybe it is ok to split, but I think that this article should have similar structure as others articles on war crimes:

• German war crimes (pre World War I, World War I, World War II)
• Japanese war crimes (mostly 1930s and 1940s)
• War crimes committed by the United States (Philippine–American War, World War II, Vietnam War)

Very important fact is that war crimes do not expire with time. So war crimes from the past are equally relevant as a recent war crimes. Also, it is common to reports on war crimes during the Yugoslav wars to also cited some older reports (Balkan Wars, WWII, etc.) to shows its historical background.[1]--Mladifilozof (talk) 23:24, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

clean up

I think it is better to exclude this section from the article, because it is more relevant to enlist names of the individuals who committed crimes then the names of the military groups and units. Maybe it is enough to properly categorize them.--Mladifilozof (talk) 23:34, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Military groups reported of committing war-crimes

Balkan Wars and WW2:

• Narodna Odbrana
• Chetniks of Draža Mihailović
• Chetniks of Kosta Pećanac
• Serbian State Guard (also known as Nedićevci)
• Serbian Volunteer Corps (also known as Ljotićevci)

Yugoslav war:

• Serbian Guard (paramilitary)
• White Eagles (paramilitary), also known as Šešeljevci, for ethnic cleansing in Bosnia, Vojvodina and Kosovo.
• Serb Volunteer Guard, also known as Arkan's Tigers, for ethnic cleansing in Bosnia.
• Scorpions (paramilitary)
• Yellow Wasps
• Vukovi s Vučjaka
• Special Anti-terrorist Unit (SAJ), carried out Attack on Prekaz.

we should add names under each military formation that they commanded or belonged to.FC Toronto (talk) 23:21, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Attack page?

Doesnt this constitute an Attack page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by KosovarAngel (talk • contribs) 17:34, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

What is this?

This article is just unbelievable I haven't seen more lies anywhere in Wikipedia all backed up by idiotic sources which mean absolutely nothing.

Even though Croats committed much worse crimes during WWI, WWII, and 90s killing and expelling millions no one wrote that article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.86.159.8 (talk) 13:34, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Fubar'd

"The war crimes were usually carried out on ethnic and religious grounds and were primarily directed against innocent civilians(Albanians, Croats, Bosniaks)."

"Never the less, no Albanian leader was ever prosecuted"

"Montenegro fascists were still in part of Northern Albania around Shkodër."

"During the occupation in 1912 and 1913, Serbian and Montenegrin army committed numerous crimes against the Albanian "komite" and other peaceful population"

Please... no more...

This article is more biased than anything I have ever seen before. It's arguments are laughable, it's plagued by incoherent sentences, and to sum all things up - the title is simply wrong. The Chetniks did commit some war crimes, so did the Partisans, so did everybody else during WW2 more or less for that matter, but how does that constitute a "Serbian war crime"?! I suggest a full split of this page. A simple compilation of existing articles in the context of presenting Serbia as a warmongering genocidal nation just doesn't cut it.

Also, what the hell is this!?

"At the end of 1912, Kingdom of Serbia was occupied by most of the land of Albania and Albanian Adriatic coast. Montenegro fascists were still in part of Northern Albania around Shkodër. During the occupation in 1912 and 1913, Serbian and Montenegrin army committed numerous crimes against the Albanian "komite" and other peaceful population:"

And below this statement there is a quote:

Houses and whole Serbian villages reduced to ashes, unarmed and innocent populations massacred en masse, incredible acts of violence commited by Albanians, pillage and brutality of every kind — such were the means which were employed and are still being employed by the Albanian "komite", with a view to the entire transformation of the ethnic character of regions inhabited by Albanians, Serbs and other minorities. [2]

– Report of the International Commission

I would gladly edit this page, but I see no potential here, no facts and no willingness to make it an actual proper Wikipedia article. It started as an attack page and it's foundation of everything written on it is so crumbled, I consider it to be fubar'd. I will be adding some tags, but that's about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BureX (talk • contribs) 11:03, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I Agree . Article in not neutral, it is disputed what is article main idea and purpose, and with that much tags, it is not usable on wikipedia any more. --Tadija^speaks 18:26, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I thought I saw everything, but this... this is live Goebbels-style propaganda. -- Bojan  Talk  08:18, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

AFD delete/split

Please see Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Serbian war crimes. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 12:37, 27 October 2010 (UTC)