Talk:Shum-gora

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This Aleksashin business seems rather fishy. So they (S. and M. Aleksashin, brothers?) in May 2003 found (they themselves) an inscribed boulder at the top of the hill, protruding 10-15 cm from the surface. The inscription conveniently turns out to be the monograph of Rurik himself, but this is far from evident, or suggested by independent experts, it is developed in a flurry of articles published by the Aleksashins themselves. And suddenly, it turns out that local folklore had always "stubbornly" called the hill the tomb of Rurik. Only, this "local folklore" seems to have been first recorded in the 1990s. Recorded, one might add, by surveyers who went out of their way to pressure villagers for stories about Rurik ("Что ты знаешь про Рюрика, великого князя русского?" -- anyone who knows the first thing about ethnology knows that this is not how you collect bona fide folklore) The 19th century records of traditions surrounding the hill have a lot to say about miracles and ghost stories, but nothing whatsoever about Rurik.

...and now the Aleksashins apparently want to build some sort of tourist complex Viking Age theme park[1]. I am relying on google translate here a lot, but this seems like a textbook case of a dubious self-rolled historical theory. --dab (𒁳) 10:58, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

More about it here:

2002: The Aleksashin brothers initially had no intention to seek the grave of Rurik. Everything came in motion after the brothers boght a house in the village in the Batetskogo rayon. Exploring the area, Sergey found a unusual stone shaped like a human face. Even here they are certain that Shum-Gora is the tomb of Rurik

2003: tada, sensational find, the same brothers plucked a rock from the hill they already knew was the tomb of Rurik, and it was inscribed with the personal monogram of Rurik. (but, "Alexander Khorosheva doubts the affiliation with Rurik. "The monogram is not a trident, which was later used the descendants of Rurik" ... "Further investigation will show what value of the stones, cultural, archaeological or historic." ... and whether or not they are decorated with the galdrastaf of legendary Rurik)

2007: still going strong, "ancient builders used here, in the Novgorod province, no less, the methods of building the Egyptian pyramids" (zomg, pyramids!) "You can, of course, call Aleksashin's version speculative, not proven by material evidence. But the fact remains: in this area are many mysterious objects." "To put it bluntly, Aleksashin finds no support in academic circles. But he was not discouraged, believing that a considered baseless today may become a classic tomorrow."

--dab (𒁳) 11:34, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting, and nice work with the article. I created it after joining an online community associated with these people but soon found things strange. A member of Haplogroup N (Y-DNA) myself, they were and presumably still are devoted to the study of the Rurikids and distantly related Gediminids, for which phenomenon see List of haplogroups of historical and famous figures#N (Y-DNA). These DNA projects are respectable enough, but what seems to have happened is that (male) Finns, the majority of whom are also N1c1, have become obsessed with the fact that the mighty Rurik, as well as Gediminas, are all family now. Formerly N was the undesirable haplogroup of forest peasants and now it's imperial, and somehow the cult has become fixated on Shum Gora here and involves a bunch of interesting Russians. I left it after a few weeks but not before telling them I had created the article and the N section in the list of haplogroups blah blah blah. They starting contributing here and somebody (unrelated?) did those nice tables in the other article. I object to your removal of the material from Rurik's article but understand your thinking. Undoubtedly like many Rurikids and Gediminids I have no wish to be related to the Finns. DinDraithou (talk) 20:18, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Let me explain that. Not only did the Finns side with the Nazis, they have become extremely ethnocentric themselves. There is a lot of fabrication, historical, mythological, linguistic, happening, all the classic things. If they had a larger country and/or nuclear weapons they would be a problem. DinDraithou (talk) 21:21, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I also doubt that district in Russia would have adopted the Shum Gora flag last year if I hadn't created this article, because there was plenty of excitement in the community. I only objected to the Finnish influence. The Russians seemed nice enough. DinDraithou (talk) 21:43, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]