Talk:St Mungo's High School

what content should be included

Follow up to this discussion, @Haksataylor I'm using the ping feature on the Talk to show you how it works. You can use this section, or create a new one to discuss your proposed additions. Star Mississippi 18:39, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Removals

In 1996 Lawrence Haggart, a 15-year-old student at the school who had signed forms with Celtic F.C. was murdered in his home by a paedophile, Brian Beattie. A memorial match was played on the 20th anniversary of his death.

Meters has twice removed this referenced material, presumably on the grounds of WP:UNDUE. The murder of a pupil, even where it did not take place in the school, is a highly significant event in the story of a school. I believe this material does belong. Does anybody else have an opinion? John (talk) 07:27, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

It did not happen at the school. It did not happen at a school event. The perpetrator was not a school staff member. It was completely unrelated to the school other than that it happened to a student. Bad things happen to some students. They get murdered. They die of nasty diseases. They die or are badly injured in horrible accidents. They die of drug overdoses. They disappear. They get assaulted. They commit crimes. We don't mention them in Wikipedia articles unless the event has a significant connection to the school. Simply having happened to a student is not enough to warrant mention. Meters (talk) 17:57, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

And similarly, we don't mention any of the many good things that happen to non-notable students. Meters (talk) 18:01, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for replying here and explaining your rationale. Lawrence Haggart will undoubtedly be as significant to St Mungo's as the Soham murders were to St Andrews primary school in Soham. That there seems insufficient third-party verification of this seems to be the problem for you. My own take would be that this is a very significant event, that it belongs on Wikipedia, and that this is where it belongs. There are very good sources, including national newspaper coverage, which cover the murder in detail and mention the victim's school. Maybe if there are no sources which explicitly lay out the enormous significance of this to the school, this is where we will be stuck. Myself, I would take the significance of this event as self-evident, and include it on this basis. Bad things happen to some students. They get murdered.... Fortunately, murders of schoolchildren are still fairly uncommon in Scotland, and that influences me to think this is already notable enough for inclusion on this article. John (talk) 18:40, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

I've now restored this, with sources explicitly highlighting the fact that the school considers it significant. Hope you agree that this takes it over the line. John (talk) 18:57, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

No, I do not agree. Please undo yourself so editors can reach a consensus. And please don't try to put words in my mouth. I never said anything about lack of third party sources. I'm not contesting that it happened, or that he was student there. It does not matter that you happen to think the incident's notability is self evident and thus should be included. Again, "it has nothing to do with the school other than that it happened to a student" and it does not warrant mention in the article. If you think the incident is itself notable then I suggest that you write an article about the incident. Meters (talk) 21:38, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

I have removed it again. This is a contested addition to the article. It stays out unless there is consensus to include it. I suggest that you read WP:EW before putting this in a fourth time. Meters (talk) 21:44, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, that's a good suggestion if the material on it here begins to overwhelm the article. I don't think that's merited yet. I think the existence of the school's memorial to the victim establishes that the event was significant to the institution, so should be included here. If we are trading advice, can I suggest you get digging for some good sources on any of the many good things that happen to non-notable students, which I agree we could do with more of, lest the article become too negative. It's a shame if this is really all the school is known for. John (talk) 21:49, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

3O: Where is the source for the memorial trophy? I'm having trouble finding it mentioned in the sources. If RS mention the trophy in connection with the school, then the trophy, and the fact that the student was a star athlete at that school, hence the trophy, then I think there is enough to briefly mention the trophy with a short explanation of its origin, but it doesn't need to go into detail about the murder. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 22:12, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

The memorial trophy is mentioned in the two Falkirk Herald sources that I added to support my last edit on the article here. John (talk) 22:28, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Hmmm the trophy name is listed in an enormous, indiscriminate list at the end of those sources. Not sure if that's sufficient coverage, is it? Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 22:40, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

It's a matter of opinion. I think the existence of a trophy named after the victim underlines the importance the school lends to the murder, I would argue making it suitable for inclusion here. The murder itself is pretty well sourced, as is the fact that the victim went to the school. Here is another high-quality source, reporting on a memorial mass the school had for the boy. He was obviously an important member of their school community, being a high-profile athlete. Here is another source, where the head teacher of the school says that "he was such a kind and caring boy. Lawrence was an incredibly popular and well respected pupil, and he was bright too." (I don't propose adding these quotes to the article, by the way, but they are further connections between the school and the murder of one of its pupils.) John (talk) 23:21, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

It may well be that this tragic incident is the most significant thing that this school is known for. If Meters is worried that this makes the article unduly negative towards the school, the solution is to try to find some more positive material to balance it. I don't think we can continue to revert the material away. Meters has said above We don't mention them in Wikipedia articles unless the event has a significant connection to the school. and I agree with that. But we have oodles of sources for the murder, almost all of which mention that he was a student at the school, and I have now provided four sources demonstrating "a significant connection to the school", in that we have the ongoing existence of a school prize named after him, the memorial mass at the school, and the kind words of the head teacher at the time. I would argue that this shows quite a strong connection between the school and the killing. John (talk) 00:06, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Eh I don't know, this all feels like reaching. Bordering on OR and SYNTH to piece everything together like this. I tend to agree with Meters that this is independent of the school. I'm just a 3O though, so you're welcome to start an RfC if you feel you must. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 00:10, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, I guess that's my next recourse here. I do still think that if this is the most significant thing this school is known for, and it seems at the moment to be so, it would be perverse not to mention it in our article. Thanks for taking the trouble to look. John (talk) 00:18, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

I don't believe 14 hours is anywhere near long enough to justify taking this to 3O or RFC. Give other editors a chance to see this and respond before declaring that this has been "thoroughly discussed on the article talk page".

John, again, I didn't contest that the incident happened or that the victim was a student. Sources to show these are irrelevant to this discussion. It was tragedy, but it was not related to the school. This is an article about the school, not about what has happened to people who happen to attend or work there. The only connection to the school is that an event happened to someone connected to the school. Simply being a student or employee at a school does not mean that the Wikipedia article about the school should discuss what has happened to students or employees outside of school. And again, please don't attempt to put words in my mouth. I did not say that I was worried about this making "the article unduly negative towards the school", and I did not suggest that we should include good things that happened. I mentioned that we also don't include such good information about people who simply attend or work at a school to show that this is the norm for school articles. We don't mention non-notable students or staff unless the event directly involves the school, good or bad. If it happens at the school, it's OK. If it happens at a school event, it's OK. If a staff member does something in a professional capacity while representing the school, it's OK. If it happens between a student and a staff member in a position of authority, it's OK. We have, in other school articles, excluded information about staff and students who have been convicted of crimes not connected to the school, individual accomplishments by staff or students, and even incidents occurring between staff and their former students. Meters (talk) 00:48, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

It's ok Meters, relax. We know what your views are as you've stated and restated them. We can also read that you said avove We don't mention them in Wikipedia articles unless the event has a significant connection to the school. but now that sources have been found to show quite a close connection to the school, there will always be other reasons not to include this, and goalposts will move if necessary to accommodate this. Sometimes we just don't like things, eh? John (talk) 15:53, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Formal opening of St Mungo's High School in 1953.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:08, 3 January 2023 (UTC)