Talk:Steamboats of the Columbia River

Untitled

This is intended to be a resource page for steamboat information used in other articles, for example Ilwaco Railway and Navigation Company so that the data and information won't have to be repeated in each article. Mtsmallwood (talk) 21:48, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Re speedy deletion: Rome not built in 5 minutes, plan is to build something like Steamboats of the Upper Fraser River in British Columbia Mtsmallwood (talk) 21:55, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Big Bend

Hi.. lots of useful info here. Was wondering whether the steamboat navigation between Wenatchee and the Okanogan River is notable. As I understand it, the Columbia and Okanogan Steamboat Company (COSC) operated at least six vessels, doing daily runs between Wenatchee and Brewster around 1900, as well as runs up the Okanogan and general hauling of wheat from the "Big Bend" region to Wenatchee's link to the Great Northern Railroad. A search for vessel names turned up Chelan, Okanogan, and North Star, but I couldn't find great sources in my quick searching.

Also, there was the City of Ellensburg sternwheeler, which apparently was the first on this "Big Bend" section of the river, having pulled its way through Priest Rapids and Rock Island Rapids to Wenatchee, then on to the Okanogan River, in 1888.

Just some thoughts on the topic. I'm not sure what the best way to add this info would be, or a good source, or even what this river reach might be called ("Upper Upper"? heh). I've just found this info in scattered bits and pieces. Pfly (talk) 07:14, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments, this topic is huge and is an ongoing project. I took a stab at the Wenatchee boat issue, you can see my effort on the main page. My two sources overlap and basically there's not a lot of detail. A map of the route and an photo would be good, I haven't been able to locate much in this line. There might be something in the local library in Wenatchee, if any Wikipedians living there were inclined to take a look. Mtsmallwood (talk) 04:57, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, a map of the Columbia showing the sections, like lower, middle, upper, "big bend", and the Canadian sections, could be useful. If nothing else it is confusing that there are two parts of the river known as "Big Bend". I like making maps, perhaps I'll attempt one. Pfly (talk) 05:10, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

maps beyond my ability, great if you can take a whack. There's a Big Bend in Canada and i think also at Wallula too. Current maps no good for steamboat period of course, all rapids and landings flooded, etc. It is very confusing to have the "upper" river end at Wallula, but for navigation purposes, that's just about right (excepting Snake River routes, something of a separate topic). I'm also not really sure what to call routes further upriver, I think "routes above Priest Rapids" (or whatever) is probably the least confusing, especially since these routes were isolated from the rest of the Columbia river traffic. Mtsmallwood (talk) 05:46, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

As I understand it, Rock Island Rapids was the first main barrier below Wenatchee, effectively stopping boats. Priest Rapids is a bit more downriver, but perhaps a more serious barrier yet. I don't know what to call the Wenatchee-Okanogan section either, unless "Wenatchee-Okanogan" works. I've long been confused by the meaning of "Big Bend" for Washington, and I'm not sure how common a name it is today, but I think it tends to mean the section between approx Grand Coulee and White Bluffs/Hanford, or perhaps as far south as the mouth of the Snake. The land within this "bend" is essentially surrounded by the river on three sides, much of which is now irrigated Columbia Basin Project land, plus the non-irrigated Waterville Plateau. The Wallula area sure looks like a "big bend", but I'm not sure I've heard it called that. The book I've been reading, which prompted me to look at related wikipedia pages, and has some info on river navigation history and such, is called "Building Washington: A History of Washington State Public Works", by Paul Dorpat and Genevieve McCoy. Nice book -- lots of photos. The Seattle library has something like 5 or 6 copies. I'm guessing you are in the Portland, Oregon area (dunno why, just a hunch), but it might be available there -- potential useful source. Pfly (talk) 06:04, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Possible title change

Hi Mtsmallwood and everyone, it occurs to me that change to the title and scope of this article might be worthwhile: what would you think of moving it to Transportation along the Columbia River, and expanding the focus a little to include some detail on rail transport and river transport before and after the steamboat era? I don't think this would take an enormous amount of work, as it seems that the steamboat aspect is the most significant. But I think more readers would find the article, and it would complement other articles better (like Columbia River, Columbia River Highway, Lolo Pass (Oregon), Rail transport in Oregon, List of hydroelectric dams on the Columbia River to name a few.) (Of course, a redirect from the present title would remain.) Thoughts? -Pete (talk) 02:30, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I support maintaining the current focus on steamboats. I think the current article holds well together and it's already 50kb. Just my 2¢ . . . Myasuda (talk) 04:57, 30 December 2007 (UTC)\

I'm thinking of breaking it up more as it is, the locks and canals discussion would each warrant a separate article. Mtsmallwood (talk) 16:56, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, then let's consider my suggestion something to ponder in the longer term, rather than an immediate call to action. I'll be working on the Columbia River article too, so maybe as both articles evolve a natural solution will present itself. -Pete (talk) 06:05, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Under Construction tag

Not sure why the {{underconstruction}} tag keeps popping up. All articles on WP are, more or less, under construction. This one is far more complete than many, many, many other articles; sure, there is room for improvement (most importantly, I think, figuring out what to do with all the photo links, which break up the article.) But, is there really a reason to keep this tag at the top of the article? -Pete (talk) 01:27, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Maybe there's a better way to present the photo links. I'm thinking about a little page for each of the more important boats, and migrating the pertinent links there. some great work along these lines was done for the Canadian boats (see navbox links). Don't know why the under construction tag is there, somebody added it without comment.Mtsmallwood (talk) 01:47, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a good plan to me. -Pete (talk) 22:50, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

"Columbia" vs "Lower Columbia"

This article's title suggests that it covers all the steamships of the Columbia, but the Wenatchee and Arrow ships are treated by separate articles. I think one of two things should happen:

• Change the title of this article, to something like Steamboats of the lower Columbia River. (Of course, this might be confusing due to the other meaning of "lower" Columbia, as described in the article.)
• Restructure this article a little, so that it summarizes those other two, with {{main}} tags to take the reader to the detailed articles.

Thoughts? -Pete (talk) 22:50, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

well, this is a problem because the Columbia river never was freely navigable all along its length. All the source materials refer to lower Columbia as being the route from the Cascades to the Sea, the middle Columbia running from Cascades to the Dalles, and the Upper Columbia beginning at Celilo and running to the head of navigation, which would be maybe at Priest Rapids on the Columbia, and Lewiston on the Snake river. In between the lower and middle was a portage, just as there was between the middle and upper river. These could almost be thought of as steps up a staircase, and I think in studying the history of river navigation, this is a good way to approach it. Also, this was the nomenclature adopted by Affleck in his book, and he seems to have spent his whole life studying the topic (a good deal more than I've spent!)

Anyway above Priest Rapids, there there were stretches of the Columbia that were "navigable" (if you count hooking a line onto a big bolt sunk in a rock and cranking the boat upstream as "navigation," which I guess they did) but until just before you got to Arrow Lakes things were pretty spotty. These areas could really only be used once railroads reached the area, Wenatchee for example, or for Arrow Lakes, Revelstoke, so that heavy equipment for a steamboat could be brought in. I have tried to deal with this by a separate article called Steamboats of the Columbia River, Wenatchee Reach which admittedly is a pretty clunky title, but it's the only thing I could think up.

Further up on the Canadian side, technically Arrow and Kootenay Lakes (as well as Lake Okanogan) might be deemed "tributaries" of the Columbia, but all the materials refer to the routes as the Arrow Lakes route etc. Way way up on the Columbia in Canada some efforts were made to navigate the river, but I haven't studied these much.

So, in short, I think it would be more confusing to rename the article, but clearly there's an issue. One solution might be to tweak the navbox a bit and show all the Columbia routes in a single area, this would make it clear that they were all on the same river, without inducing confusion. I'll do some tweaking and see what I can do.Mtsmallwood (talk) 00:47, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Good points. I think I have a fairly good solution, at least a temporary one, how do you like what I'm putting at the top of the article? -Pete (talk) 06:41, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

looks good. note new nav box may help also.Mtsmallwood (talk) 12:49, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Navigation on tributaries

I struck some of the material on these, Cowlitz River has it's own article now and Yamhill River should have its own (someday). The navbox has a reference to the Cowlitz river article. The struck material is here in case anyone wants it back.

Operations on upper reaches of Columbia

Main article: Steamboats of Columbia River, Wenatchee Reach

Operations on minor tributaries Cowlitz River

Main article: Steamboats of the Cowlitz River

Yamhill River In 1900, the Lafayette lock was opened and the sternwheeler Bonita was the first to pass through, however, the expected traffic on the Yamhill never materialized.

• waterfront at Dayton, Oregon, 1880s, showing A.A. McCully, America, and several longshore businesses

References

Deletion of External Links and some images

This article needs to be more focused, there were too many external links that were crowding the page, and there were a lot of images that now have their own articles, for example Multnomah. Also, Virginia V while technically the last commercial boat on the Columbia, has its own page and lots of images already. I was also concerned that the images tend to show the same few vessels (for example Bailey Gatzert which is unnecessary and distracting. I've recently discovered an excellent PD source for some good early photos of Columbia river steamboats and want to upload these, to further cut down on number of external links and keep focus on this topic. Mtsmallwood (talk) 14:22, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

References

These references were either too general or were repetitive of the inline citations. I"m putting them here on the discussion page in case anybody is interested or wants them back in the main article.

Pacific Northwest Steamboats

• Corning, Howard McKinley, Willamette Landings, (2nd Ed.) Oregon Historical Society, Portland, OR 1977 ISBN 0-87595-042-6
• Faber, Jim, Steamer's Wake, Enetai Press, Seattle, WA 1985 ISBN 0-9615811-0-7
• Mills, Randall V., Sternwheelers up Columbia, University of Nebraska Press, Lincoln, NE 1947 ISBN 0-8032-5874-7
• Robertson, Donald B., Encyclopedia of Western Railroading - Volume III - Oregon and Washington, at 222, Caxton Printers, Caldwell, ID 1995 ISBN 0-8700-4366-8
• Newell, Gordon R., Ships of the Inland Sea, Binford & Mort, Portland, OR (2nd Ed. 1960)
• Newell, Gordon R., ed., H.W. McCurdy Marine History of the Pacific Northwest, Superior Publishing, Seattle, WA 1966
• Newell, Gordon, and Williamson, Joe, Pacific Steamboats, Bonanza Books, New York, NY (1963)
• Ruby, Robert H. and Brown, John A., Ferry Boats on the Columbia River, Superior Publishing Co., Seattle, WA 1974
• Timmen, Fritz, Blow for the Landing, Caxton Printers, Caldwell, ID 1972 ISBN 0-87004-221-1
• Gulick, Bill, Steamboats on Northwest Rivers, Caxton Press, Caldwell, Ida. (2004) ISBN 0-87004-438-9

Steamboats in general

• Hunter, Louis C., Steamboats on the Western Rivers, Dover Publications, NY 1947 ISBN 0-486-27863-8

Mtsmallwood (talk) 04:57, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Other tributary articles

Steamboats of Kootenay Lake is peripheral to this, also as it turns out there were at least two on Slocan Lake, my friend up there seemed to think that included the Moyie (sternwheeler), which also served on either Kootenay or Arrow Lakes and must have been hauled in there somehow; not sure if two steamboats makes Steamboats of Slocan Lake worthwhile; maybe there were more than two, however briefly.Skookum1 (talk) 17:08, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Other tributary rivers

I'll see if I can find rates of flow for the upper Columbia tributaries, those joining it from the Rockies and Selkirks plus the Canoe River at the top of the Big Bend; below that to the Kootenay River there are no other major tributaries that I can think of, but the montane ones in the upper reaches, including the Canoe, are I think quite large.....Skookum1 (talk) 17:08, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

That's a huge geographic area, there is one book I think that may cover it, Downs, Art, Paddlewheels on the Frontier My copy does not include an ISBN number. There may be some help in Turner, Robert D., Sternwheelers and Steam Tugs which is good on the Okanogan, Arrow, and Kootenay lakes. Mtsmallwood (talk) 20:49, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

resource article

Y'all may have found this by now, but if not looks very valuable as a further resource...prob also for Steamboats of the Arrow Lakes.Skookum1 (talk) 14:29, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

upriver nomenclature again

I just found a really great page on steamboats of the Columbia River....the upper, upper, upper Columbia River, the area we BCers confusingly call the Columbia Valley. As it stands, the Steamboats of the Arrow Lakes article is really Steamboats of the Arrow Lakes and Middle Columbia River and Steamboats of the Columbia River is really Steamboats of the Lower Columbia River, except you guys down in Oregon/Washington don't consider the Wenatchee Reach to be "lower", rather it's above "upper".....to make things worse, the Steamboats of the Columbia Valley is really Steamboats of the Columbia Valley and Kootenai River, and I'm unclear yet as to whether boats that transited Columbia Lake-Kootenay/i River made it around to Bonner's Ferry and into Kootenay Lake, i.e. whether there's overlap with Steamboats of Kootenay Lake and the Kootenai River, which seems the natural title there; I've not heard of boats going from Canal Flats around to Bonner's Ferry, don't even know if that's navigable....but it sure is a tangle of subarticles, and I'm concerned about the title of this article, due to the US-bias/perspective of its content/context. I guess a "dab paragraph", or a better-worded version of what's there would suffice; but this page almost seems like it needs a disambiguation-style breakdown because, to us Canadians, "Steamboats of the Columbia River" should include those that served Trail and Castlegar (covered in the Arrow Lakes article) and also those in the uppermost Columbia/Columbia Lake. Steamboats of Columbia Lake and the Kootenai River might cut it, I guess, with the Golden-Spillimacheen extension northwards in the same non-mentioned league as Trail and Revelstoke in teh Arrow Lakes article....I still think there were steamboats up in the Big Bend, briefly anyway; more digging to come....btw re Talk:Columbia River if there's not already a mention in Columbia River of the Columbia Canal, aka Columbia Lake Canal aka Columbia-Kootenay Canal, there should be...I've begun a stub on Steamboats of Lake Okanagan - were there any steamboats on the American Okanogan River...or just not enough water?Skookum1 (talk) 15:40, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Mississippi and others needed

Much to my surprise Steamboats of the Mississippi River isn't an article but a redirect to Steamboats. Seems like a major undertaking in need of making; I don't know enough Mississippi River history to even begin, and not sure which other WikiProjects (other than Ships) this should be posted in - all the various state WikiProjects affected?Skookum1 (talk) 16:06, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Also "missing" is Steamboats of the Sacramento River or Steamboats of the Sacramento and San Joaquin Rivers; many of those boats were also Columbia, Fraser and Puget Sound/Inside Passage vessels.....Skookum1 (talk) 16:12, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Also to note that Steamboats of the Yukon River is just a stub and needs major work.Skookum1 (talk) 16:13, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Cape Horn and all that

Regarding this edit by Joey timme, I'm uncertain. I believe there are several features named "Cape Horn" along the Columbia, and also Watkins is known to have photographed the one in Washington from the Oregon side of the river. It's also possible for a photo to be flopped left-to-right. Since the OHQ caption on this one asserts that the train photographed is on the Oregon side, I'd be inclined to go with that. But I'll try to dig deeper. Further thoughts? I know I'll be watching for this view next time I drive out that way.... -Pete Forsyth (talk) 05:12, 4 February 2022 (UTC)