Talk:Surrogacy

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Articles merged: See old talk-page here.

Geographical Mix up[edit]

here are many geographical mix ups, for example the section on Austria refers to Austria and Australia as the same country ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.113.173.89 (talk) 15:05, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't know about mix-ups, but the map is definitely wrong and I don't know how to find the orginal graphic to change it. You can see an up to date map of US state laws at https://www.creativefamilyconnections.com/us-surrogacy-law-map/ which clearly shows very different laws. For example, Oregon has a growing commercial surrogacy industry (https://www.opb.org/news/series/surrogacy-oregon/) but the map in this article shows it as not allowing compensated surrogates. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.120.10.48 (talk) 20:24, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Elder[edit]

I mergedfrom surrogate mother and redirect that here. RJFJR 01:44, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I removed the word or ersatz mother from the phrase

A surrogate mother or ersatz mother

because it seems pejorative to me. If this is a common or important term then please reinsert it. RJFJR 01:44, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism[edit]

Should this be here?

Her favorite food is bananas.

-Marc

I doubt that that should be there. I'm removing it, since it's tangential. Rarr 21:16, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Normally vandalism such as this [1] should be removed without question. And it's not tangential but totally unrelated. Esmito (talk) 17:38, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Religious views[edit]

We could talk about religious views towards surrogacy. I know that Roman Catholics in particular opposed to it (sorry, had a test on fertility treatments in religious studies today). Also, in the UK, it is illegal to pay someone for surrogacy. Baberlp 20:20, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Possible copyvio[edit]

Does anyone know the connection between our article and this website: www.surrogate-mother.net? The content is nearly identical. I'll act upon it in a couple of days - hopefuly, somebody will clear this up before it. --dcabrilo 20:50, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

That link has been repeatedly spammed so we're now blacklisting it. --A. B. (talkcontribs) 20:50, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Relatives as surrogate moms[edit]

The article is well written, but good to mention an increasing number of surrogate mothers who carried a relative's unborn baby full term. Thousands of news reports and medical records find a trend of other female relatives in child-bearing age (between 20 to 50) agreed to be surrogates for a (sister, brother, niece, nephew, aunt, uncle, son or daughter's) unborn child.

It's somewhat popular because they as biological relatives may share a blood type that's vital and won't damage the developing fetus, as well an easier option in terms of emotional intimacy to share between family members, esp. the surrogate mother is in good health and some say are physically "used" to multiple pregnancies or having children before (and are willing to do this).

I hope my comment based on fact and personal observation (my sister carried my brother's son full term, because his wife is infertile and they felt it's a more emotional, as well phsyiological bond to choose her a surrogate, and she has 3 kids of her own). I hope this info. will be useful and need much investigation before I entered this to the article. Thank you for reading. 209.247.21.245 23:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

edits[edit]

added. A number of passages in this article appear to lack neutrality in the sense of being on the far edge of anti-surrogacy, for example "Is contracting for surrogacy more like contracting for employment/labor, or more like contracting for prostitution, or more like contracting for slavery?" Maybe comparison to kidney donation or a dangerous job (eg. linesman or nuclear power worker) would be more neutral than to prostitution, and comparison to slavery seems to belittle the unique crime of slavery.

Removed unsourced opinions like "accepted by almost everyone" (which is clearly false given that 6 states have laws making it a criminal offense) and added a section on legality, and improved academic tone. someone can clean up my cites.

Restingpulse 16:06, 10 November 2007 (UTC)dave.

I removed the reference to the possible intended parent being "multiple males (usually a homosexual couple)" and changed it to say that the intended parent may be a single male or a male homosexual couple. The way it was worded before, "multiple males" gives the impression that in the past a group of several men came together to have a baby. There is no evidence to suggest that two straight men together or a grouping of three males or more have ever tried to conceive a child through surrogacy. When men without female partners opt for surrogacy it's either one straight male, one gay male, or two gay men together. No other alternatives exist. Shpilk (talk) 20:13, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Merger proposal[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

The result was merge into Surrogacy. -- Thayvian (talk) 00:12, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I propose merging Gestational carrier and Commercial surrogacy into this article and discussing the issues that are unique to each of them as separate sections in this article, while discussing the issues common to all surrogacy arrangements in other sections.

My reasons for:

  • there are extensive issues that are relevant to all types of surrogate pregnancies, including legality of the surrogacy, who the legal parents are and validity of contracts assigning legal parentage from birth to the commissioning parents. On various websites, these are usually discussed as one issue.
  • many of the ethical issues overlap
  • the three articles are each rather short and moreover somewhat overlapping

Possible reasons against:

  • commercial surrogacy in particular has some unique ethical issues, including the commissioning of commericial surrogacies in countries where it is legal (eg Australians commissioning them in the US) or where it is cheap (Americans commissioning them in India)

Thayvian (talk) 08:14, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Agree[edit]

I agree, simply because the articles overlap so much that there is a great deal of duplication. I'm not sure about the title of this article though. Surrogacy/surrogate can refer to many things. "Surrogate mother" would be more appropriate. TINYMark (Talk) 21:15, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
How about "Surrogate pregnancy"? The article already has a lot to say about other parties to the pregnancy. Thayvian (talk) 05:39, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree. There is an overlap here. Surrogacy is surely the subject, and commercial surrogacy is merely a sub-issue, being a particular type of surrogacy arrangement.[Andrew] 9 January 2008

Disagree[edit]


The above discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Survivor (novel) in "Fictional representation" section[edit]

This novel by Chuck Palahniuk depicts a woman whose job is to be a surrogate mother but is illegitimate. I recomend that it be mentioned in the fictional representation section as the depiction sheds some light on the subject.--Funkamatic (talk) 07:06, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Help! Vandalism[edit]

I have reverted mother-surrogate.com/en this link -- mother-surrogate.com/en -- to a Ukrainian money making surrogacy "plant" twice now. If it happens again could someone else take a look. I don't want to get done for 3RR. Thanks TINYMARK 08:31, 15 January 2008 (UTC) Insert non-formatted text here

See meta:Talk:Spam blacklist#Ukrainian spam: mother-surrogate.net & mother-surrogate.com (permanent link).
--A. B. (talkcontribs) 22:16, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Er... Thanks A. B. I requested the blacklisting myself! I was hoping a brief block might bring the user to his senses ;-) Happy editing TINYMARK 19:01, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Link Proposal[edit]

I would like to propose a link to surrogacy experiences - both surrogate mothers and mothers by surrogacy who tell their personal stories: Personal Surrogacy Experiences —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rachinbar (talkcontribs) 11:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


Removed link (www.fertilitystories.com/surrogacy.htm). For-profit site. Not useful. --Ofmdoug (talk) 22:14, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Christian bioethics[edit]

The article should maybe allow room for the official views expressed by the social doctrine of the Church. ADM (talk) 04:35, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Northern Territory[edit]

The Northern Territory has no legislation governing surrogacy at all, however NSW recently outlawed surrogacy under the Assisted Reproductive Technology Act 2007 No 69 [2] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.148.207.230 (talk) 07:29, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Belgium and Netherlands[edit]

I'm not sure, how the legal aspects in Belgium and Netherlands are. So there should be a reference. 92.252.18.72 (talk) 22:41, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

in the netherlands altruistic surrogacy is allowed. this always works by means of the surrogate mother allowing for the child to be adopted by the social parents (pre-birth surrogacy-contracts are not legally enforcible. when the child is born the surrogate is the legal mother). so for the whole proceedings to take place the surrogate has to be labeled as 'unfit mother' by child-protection so that the child can be legally up for adoption (which is seen as undesirable, since it puts her in the same category as women who have their child forcibly taken away because of child-abuse issues). since gay-marriage has the same legal status as hetero-marriage the baby can also be adopted by a gay couple (adoption by single parents is legally allowed but extremely rare, this goes both for surrogates and for f.i. 3th-world-babies). commercial surrogacy is legally prohibited. people engaging in it are at risk of not just getting fined but also losing any parental rights to the child Selena1981 (talk) 01:03, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

In Belgium and the Netherlands altruistic surrogay is legalized. --Fregarute (talk) 19:48, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

France[edit]

The reference to french law, terse though it is, it complete and non ambiguous, with an accurate reference to the official legal texte applicable. There seems to be no reason for the challenge banner, which should therefore be removed or detailed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.58.247.50 (talk) 12:58, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Is this an accurate translation of the French Law?

French: "Toute convention portant sur la procréation ou la gestation pour le compte d'autrui est nulle." English Translation (from google translate): "Any agreement concerning procreation or gestation on behalf of others is void."

--Ofmdoug (talk) 22:02, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Cleaning up this page[edit]

This page definitely needs to get cleaned up. I propose creating pages such as “Surrogacy in the United States” “Surrogacy in India” “Surrogacy in Europe” or some other variation and linking the new pages to this page. This "Surrogacy" page should explain what it is, its variations, its history and medical information.

Also going to try to reach out to legal people who work in A.R.T. in Europe, Asia, Central/South America. See if I can get some clarification on the surrogacy laws (if any) in their countries and perhaps english translation of the current laws.

--Ofmdoug (talk) 21:56, 4 May 2010 (UTC)


Shouldn't it be French Court of CassationCour de Cassation rather than the French Courts the Cessation — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.137.52.8 (talk) 09:42, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Definition Clean-up[edit]

Propose the following - please edit my grammar as necessary:

Surrogacy is an arrangement whereby a woman (Surrogate Mother) agrees to become pregnant and deliver a child for a contracted party (Intended Parents). Depending on the type of arrangement, the Surrogate Mother may or may not be the genetic mother.

A surrogacy arrangement falls into one of two categories: Traditional Surrogacy or Gestational Surrogacy.

In a Traditional Surrogacy arrangement, the Surrogate Mother is the genetic mother. The Surrogate Mother contributes an ovum which becomes fertilized with the Intended Parents' sperm or sperm from a donor.

In a Gestational Surrogacy arrangement, the Surrogate Mother has no genetic link to the child. The genetic material comes from the Intended Parents and/or from donor sources.

{Below this we can explain how traditional (sexual intercourse/artificial insemination} and gestational(embryo transfer) work. Also changed the definition to read "arrangement" instead of "method of reproduction"} --Ofmdoug (talk) 22:59, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Edit proposal[edit]

As noted in this article, there are various unnecessary words and text which could be deleted, making the piece a better reference point on this subject.

I am prepared to start this and intend to commence with the section on the UK which contains intersting background to then present law, but which is probably not now relevant.

If anyone has any objection, could they please post here within two weeks otherwise I will start to edit.

ALEXEIS —Preceding unsigned comment added by ALEXEIS (talkcontribs) 06:52, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Ethical Issues[edit]

the secession of ethics goes straight into shooting down as what it sees as myths with out even properly explaining them.We should at least flesh out the augments against Surrogacy before telling the counter arguments. It's more than a little dismissive of any ethical concerns how it stands now.

Joeyjojo (talk) 13:19, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

the current section reads like a pamphlet in a surrogacy clinic where they make money based on number of kids per hour. someone flag this as not NPOV Pär Larsson (talk) 21:49, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

the whole page has way too much of a vibe of 'surrogacy is totally awesome and never has any real problems'. a list of the real concerns would be in place, with links to research that proves or disproves arguments (often there will be research in either vein, based on which special-interest group paid for the research to be done) Selena1981 (talk) 01:13, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Non-notable reference removed - October 2010[edit]

I removed a poorly sourced section that included edits sourced to a non-notable blog column by Jacob M. Appel. Please discuss WP:RS here and see Talk: Jacob M. Appel for discussions on spamming and sockpuppetry. Flowanda | Talk 07:03, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Legality: United Kingdom[edit]

The United Kingdom’s Legality section for this article needs serious rework. I don't doubt the information present in it, however it seems to be written in an incoherent and often "Story telling" format.

I will be editing the article over the next couple of days however any assistance or review would be greatly appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.197.105 (talk) 13:23, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

article needs expert attention[edit]

"The following statement, in the introductory section, is ambiguous at best: "It is a cultural assumption that normal women do not become pregnant with the premise of being reimbursed monetarily, and that women naturally develop a bond with the child they give birth to [3]" The citation provided does not include the title of the journal in which the article appeared, so it's difficult to assess the credentials of the author. However, at the very least the sentence is partly meaningless and partly inaccurate. First, there must be data available on whether surrogates accept payments beyond expenses. Second, whose "cultural assumption"? Remunerated surrogacy may not be a part of most cultures, but this is hardly surprising since the techniques have not been around long, and cultures typically have histories of tens, hundreds or thousands of years. Third, it seems contradictory to say that the fact that women naturally develop a bond with their child is itself a cultural assumption. Either it's Nature (i.e. biology) or Nurture (i.e. culture), or both. Fourth, there is abundant evidence that hormonal changes occur during pregnancy and that these have impacts on the mother-child bond. Please write plain understandable english with suitable supporting references!Paulhummerman (talk) 18:56, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

The Greatest Love, 1956 story by Anne McCaffrey[edit]

This story involves a case of a fertilized ovum transferred from mother to her husband's sister. She wrote it in 1956, set 20 years in the future of 1976. It wasn't published until 1977. When was the first real such procedure performed? Bizzybody (talk) 07:12, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Natural Insemination ?[edit]

Within a Traditional Surrogacy, the page lists many options to perform the insemination: via IUI, IVF or home insemination, anyway in artificial ways. It is of course possible that the surrogate mother agrees to intercourse with the father, in order to realise a natural inseminsation; do you know of surrogacy contracts stating that?

Found myself that 6 US states states "natural or artificial insemination" in their law about surrogacy. I am going to add to the page that the insemination could well be natural beside than artificial ref https://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(fafd1pmmaskddt55stz4qvuo))/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-722-853 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.205.194.4 (talk) 15:48, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

pov[edit]

A lot of this article is written in a very POV form. Specifically it is imbalanced towards pro surrogacy. Any negative points are annotated with things like "but this could be because of..." But Tue other instances of correlation seem to imply causation, and don't hint at confounding (or possibly intentionally-hidden) variables McKay (talk) 04:25, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Surrogacy and Adoption[edit]

I accessed this page because I didn't understand why surrogacy is needed when there are so many orphaned kids in the world who desperately need a home and parents. Having read it, I'm still none the wiser. Can someone fill in this gap with reference to any appropriate literature? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.100.155.6 (talk) 10:00, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Possibly unintentional politicisation of map[edit]

Possibly unintentionally, the map - a very useful illustration for the article - shows the Falkland Islands as part of the territory of Argentina. Interestingly, the cited source map does not appear to. I would have thought that this article is probably not the right place for such politicking, even if unintentional? 193.108.78.10 (talk) 09:49, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

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Format of Content and Citations[edit]

The introduction lacks clarity and is vague in its explanation. The introduction also talks heavily about medical risks and legal/financial issues. It would be helpful to restructure the headings and subheadings currently provided. I would not include "Ethical Issues" about surrogacy to maintain neutral coverage in the information provided so readers are persuaded through particular viewpoints. Also, this particular section does not have citations.

In regards to structure, the heading, "Citizenship," can be placed as a subheading under "Legal Issues." The "History" heading is relevant to the article, but there are major gaps in the timeline and is not up to date.

There are claims cited that do not come from reliable sources. The link to the term jurisdiction is connected to a wikipedia article that is vague and needs additional citations for verification. Furthermore, the paraphrased statement from "Reproductive Law" is an official website with biased information. The heading, "Surrogacy centers," does not have any sources to support its claim and does not provide enough information. Also, is there a difference between "Surrogacy centers," "Surrogacy clinics," and "Surrogacy agencies"?

If anyone has any thoughts or input, please share! Thank you!

P18 (talk) 03:49, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

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Altruistic surrogacy[edit]

Altruistic surrogacy was legalized during the last five years in Denmark, Sweden, Belgium and the Netherlands. --Fregarute (talk) 19:50, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Source for ethical issues regarding transnational surrogacy[edit]

I just skimmed through this article Cheney's "International Commercial Surrogacy". It really looks like a good source to me if anyone has time to expand the ethical section of this article. Happy editing! Fred (talk) 17:10, 19 May 2018 (UTC)


Disambiguation Suggested[edit]

People tend confuse the topic of this article, surrogacy to make babies, with sexual surrogacy, a form of therapy. I suggest placing a disambiguation line at the top of this article, and also atop the "Sexual_surrogate" article. Rad314 (talk) 12:30, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Reverted some edits to do with fertility tourism and India[edit]

With these 2 edits [3], I have basically reverted these edits [4] which eliminated the fertility tourism section. (Another editor later combined the 2 US sections and resorted the list to be alphabetical.)

While I have no strong opinions on the current design of the fertility tourism section, I do think it makes sense to have one since we do after all have an article, and surrogacy is one area it covers. The attempted changes to the India section were unacceptable since it appears to be a direct copy of the Indian government press release so raises serious copyvio concerns.

I'd also note that even the sources don't support the claim about a ban on commercial surrogacy anyway. It refers to a bill before parliament which at the time of the PR hadn't been passed into law so could be amended or simply fail to pass. Maybe at the time people wrote this, the bill had passed. I have no idea.

The correct way to handle that would be to summarise what reliable secondary sources are saying about the new law if it exists and it's effects (without excessively close paraphrasing). Not to copy old Indian government press releases. The other articles would also need to be updated especially Commercial surrogacy in India. I'd note that the existing information may be modified or reduced. It may not necessarily be eliminated. Historical information is likely to be of interest to our readers.

I'd also note that even if the law had passed in 2017 and took effect immediately, I have doubts the complete effect on commercial surrogacy in India would be completely known already. In any country and especially developing ones, the government banning something doesn't mean it's actually eliminated. Wikipedia articles should mention the law, but they should also mention reality.

Nil Einne (talk) 06:41, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Legality[edit]

As with others, I agree the article generally is a mess. For example, in a few cases e.g. Finland and Portugal it says surrogacy or traditional surrogacy is illegal noting that traditional surrogacy can of course include artificial insemination without the aide of medical personnel or natural insemination, both of which would generally be legal if both parties consent. It could be that in either country if these acts are done with the intention of surrogacy, they are illegal, but it could be the actually situation is different. For example, perhaps it's simply that surrogacy arrangements are illegal which is a related but distinct point. I'd also note there is a difference between a surrogacy arrangement being illegal meaning someone can be fined or prosecuted for having such an arrangement even informally, and for them to be not legally enforceable. There is the related but again distinct issue of whether the birth and genetic mother (for traditional surrogates) can actually give up their rights even if they still agree to after birth. When people are adding content, they need sources which are clear on what the actual legal situation is. Nil Einne (talk) 07:14, 23 October 2018 (UTC)