Talk:Sven Alkalaj

Expiration of 4 year mandate as foreign minister?

This Norwegian reference [1] claims that he is "in overtime" in regard to his 4 year mandate as foreign minister. Is he "in overtime"?--Lærarstudent (talk) 12:10, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Nationality

Yeah, the source says he ceased to be a Jew by natioanlity. This is the reason he was criticised as he got his job as minister for being member of a national minority. Read the source and make logical conclusion.

SC: "Ministar vanjskih poslova Bosne i Hercegovine Sven Alkalaj izložen je silovitim kritikama i zahtjevima da podnese ostavku nakon što je objavljeno kako je dobio državljanstvo Republike Hrvatske temeljem izjašnjenja o pripadnosti hrvatskom narodu, prenose u srijedu lokalni mediji u BiH."

SC: "Alkalajevo hrvatsko državljanstvo odnosno pripadnost hrvatskom narodu za oponente njegove Stranke za BiH (SBiH) ne bi bili sporni da se on istodobno u BiH ne izjašnjava kao Židov što je bio jedan od osnova da dobije sadašnju ministarstku poziciju." --K. Solin (talk) 20:37, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

No he did not. The source says the scandal is in the fact that he "claims to be one thing in one country and another thing in another country". This would be dubious even if it would be true (which it isn't) because you don't need to be an ethnic Croat to be awarded Croatian citizenship in Bosnia. So nobody has any shred of evidence that he himself ever described himself as a Croat. Actually it was Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović who he asked to get the citizenship, based on "discretionary right" which allows anyone to be given citizenship for pretty much any reason. Timbouctou (talk) 20:40, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

One of the possibilities for a person to get a Croatian citizenship is declaring yourself a Croat and by giving evidence your father or mother were also Croats. This is how Alkalaj got his citizenship and this is clearly noted in the source - he got the citizenship by declaring himself a Croat. Moreover, this is the latest statement on his nationality, and logically it nulls all previous declarations, makes them void. Saying he got citizenship for "other reasons", even though it is clearly sead in the source why he got it and how, is just silly thing to do. Your source says the same. :) And you have no idea what "discretionary right" is, right? ([2]) --K. Solin (talk) 20:44, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

This is all pure speculation and conjecture. Yeah, it's "one of the reasons", but you don't know if this was the method used by Alkalaj, do you? Do the Bosnian tabloids? Does Jutarnji list? No, they don't. Also, where does it say self-describing as an Eskimo at a later date annuls somebody's self-declarations as a, let's say, Jew? This is also pure speculation and conjecture. The only fact that we have is what the institution handling citizenship says - the ministry of the interior of Croatia - and it does not mention anything about his ethnicity, self-declared or not, in their press release concerning the matter, as stated at Dalje.com. "Discretionary right" that some officials have concerns the authority to give citizenship to anyone they deem citizenship should be given to, regardless of any other factors. Using your logic Semion Mogilevich is also an ethnic Croat, or at least his mother must be :-))) Timbouctou (talk) 20:48, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Lol, the source, all sources say - he got citizenship based on his declaration as a Croat. :) What makes you ignore this fact? Sources don't mention he only got citizenship, they also mention the reason for geting one. This is clearly stated in all sources, mine and yours. It is his latest declaration. Ofcourse saying it makes other declarations void is also true, since you can't have two ethnicities or nationalities (what ever). Identity is one thing, and nationality the other. Moreover - where do you find Alkalaj declared a Jew by nationality, this is the only source about his nationality we have. And how the hack do you know what is my logic? You made things up. My logic is - man declared himself a Croat. End of story. --K. Solin (talk) 20:53, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Let me say this one last time - what you call "sources" are second-hand accounts published in tabloid weeklies, expressly for daily political purposes. I guess nobody would think anything of it if he had received American citizenship, would they? And I assume nobody would be ranting about how he must have told somebody at the embassy that he was an ethnic American, now would they.Also, you are confusing "ethnicity" and "nationality". Even if this was all true - you would still need Alkalaj himself to say that he is a Croat, as we don't accept other people's description of something which is everyone's personal prerogative to declare. Jutarnji list can't declare Alija Izetbegović to be an Eskimo and instantly make it true. As for him being a Jew, we have plenty of sources who corroborate this, as is customary in Bosnia, a country with a stone age political system where one's ethnicity is the cornerstone of everything. In fact, members of Parliament explicitly stated he was appointed to the post of foreign minister "by claiming he was a Jew" and they even voted whether to strip him of his office over this matter. And they didn't. So I guess your idea of later self-declarations somehow overriding previous ones is pretty different from theirs. Timbouctou (talk) 20:58, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Another silly thing to do - there are no tabloid(s) in my sources. Jutarnji list ain't a tabloid. Also, Jutarnji list didn't say he is a Croat, the newspaper simly said he himslef declared a Croat in order to get a citizenship. And what you ask of me is not a condition for adding nationality. You one more time make things up. The source is clear on this, and all other sources who wrote on the event. And no, I do not mix nationality and ethnicity. Nationality can be understood in more ways, it's not a fixed term. You can understnad it either as ethnicity or citizenship, all the same. The source says he said he is a part of the Croat people, not Croatian state. So one more time - Jutarnji list didn't declared him anything, it wrote about his action of declaring himself a Croat in order to get a citizenship. Now, another thing. You clearly don't know the laws in Bosnia and Herzegovina. The law doesn't say there must be a Jew in ministry, or a member of national minority. It was a political agreement, not legal obligation. So your other argument is useless. Also your latest source says clearly - he declared as Croat. You make things harder for yourself. --K. Solin (talk) 21:05, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

It's not my argument, it was the argument of MP's in Bosnia and Herzeovina Parliament who tried to recall him over the matter, delving into his ethnicity, implicitly saying they wouldn't have had him appointed if they had known he was a Croat. Yeah, it seems everybody and their sister knows Alkalaj is a Croat, except Alkalaj himself who never said so. And until that changes, this article will remain as it is. Timbouctou (talk) 21:10, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

And who are you to say how the article will look like? :) The argument of MPs is that they are mad because they were outgamed in a political, game. It's not about the laws. So both theirs and your argument over the issue is useless. Everybody and even Alkalaj know he got a citizenship by declaring himself a Croat. So yeah... --K. Solin (talk) 21:12, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

But, unfortunately, you don't actually have Alkalaj describing himself as a Croat, do you? How do you know he is secretly not a Muslim then? Or a Swede? Or maybe a pink unicorn dressed to look like a Bosnian Jew? We all know all sorts of people have received Croatian citizenship for all kinds of reasons, and very few of them are perceived to be "Croats" for solely that reason. Timbouctou (talk) 21:15, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Lol. He himslef by his actions confrimed he is a Croat. What, you don't know any other sings of communication except the oral one? :) You kow, there are other ways to express your mind, not just oral or writer statement. What he done is he wrote - "I'm a Croat" so I have legal basis for geting the citizenship. Now, if you ask an oral or writen statement by a person, than let's make a large-scale "reform" on wiki, and erase all nationality for all men until they orally say they are what they are. Your argument is just pointless, if you have any. Did Leon Trotsky ever said he was a Jew? Or did Joseph Stalin said he was a Georgian? Who gave right for other people to say he was a Jew or Georigan when he himself didn't say so.... :D --K. Solin (talk) 21:19, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Trotsky was married by a Jewish chaplain, and Stalin was actually born in Georgia. Alkalaj was born in Bosnia and he went on record saying himself that he is a Jew. He never said anything other than that, and he kept saying that well into his 60s. And who exactly do you think you are to interpret somebody's "actions" and derive what ethnicity they belong to? Would you conclude he was an ethnic Swede if he received Swedish citizenship? What if he had happened to receive UK citizenship? Would you, wise as you are, not needing "oral statements" and so on, conclude that he was Scottish or Welsh? Would that be a dilemma for you? And would you care at all? We have no proof that he ever stated, in writing or otherwise, that his ethnicity was anything other than Jewish. Simply because one does not need to do so in order to get a Croatian passport, and the ministry of interior, which issued the said passport, just cited the law based on which he was gioven citizenship. And that law covers many groups and many reasons. Timbouctou (talk) 21:30, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Oh, this would actually be a gut argument if it wasn't pointless. He didn't only get Croatian citizenship, he got it by declaring himself a Croat. Now in Croatian law, there are various ways to obtain citizenship. You can work and live there long enough, or you can earn it my your merits like Emir Hadžihafizbegović did, or you can prove you are a Croat, like Sven Alkalaj did. Now, you see, wise as I am, as you said, I would claim Hadžihafizbegović is a Croat for having a Croatian citizenship, because he got it for other reason. But I don't do that. Wise as I am, I know that Stalin was born in Georgia, but let's look thins deeper. Georiga was actually Russia back than... so would he be Russian? Perhaps. How do we know he wasn't? There are also some Armenians and Azeris, and even Turks in Georgia... could it be he was an Orthodox Turk? We actually can't say, so I'll remain silent and ask for others to delete information that Stalin was a Georigan, because he never said he was. --K. Solin (talk) 21:40, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

You don't know how Alkalaj got his passport. Jutarnji list doesn't know. Dnevni Avaz doesn't know. Slobodna fucking Bosna does not know. Only Croatia's interior ministry and Alkalaj himself know. And neither - get it, neither of them - said Alkalaj got his passport by magically turning into an ethnic Croat after spending 60 years living as a self-described Jew. Get it? Timbouctou (talk) 21:41, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Oh, I know. Because sources say he did got Croatian citizenship. Another made up thing.... SC: "Ministar vanjskih poslova Bosne i Hercegovine Sven Alkalaj izložen je silovitim kritikama i zahtjevima da podnese ostavku nakon što je objavljeno kako je dobio državljanstvo Republike Hrvatske temeljem izjašnjenja o pripadnosti hrvatskom narodu, prenose u srijedu lokalni mediji u BiH". Article 16 of the Law on the Croatian Citizenship: SC: "Pripadnik hrvatskog naroda koji nema prebivalište u Republici Hrvatskoj, može steći hrvatsko državljanstvo ako udovoljava pretpostavkams iz članka 8. stavka 1. točaka 4. i 5. ovoga zakona i dade pisanu izjavu da se smatra hrvatskim državljaninom. Izjava iz stavka 1. ovoga članka se predaje nadležnom tijelu ili diplomatskom ili konzularnom predstavništvu Republike Hrvatske u inozemstvu". If he didn't recieved his citizenhsip, or passport, there would be no scandal, and if nobody knew except him, again, there would be no scandal. But people know. And get it - this is what happened - he caeased to be what he was, by declaring a Croat in one day. This is the point. --K. Solin (talk) 21:50, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

You entire argument rests on the first three words - "pripadnik hrvatskog naroda". Who says this paragraph applies to Alkalaj at all? There are other paragraphs he might have invoked, and had he used that one, he wouldn't have needed to ask Croatia's foreign minister to intervene, just like hundreds of thousands ethnic Croats did not need to when they applied for Croatian passports. Again, this is pure conjecture. Repeated ad nauseam by every tabloid in the region, but still, pure conjecture. And even if it was true (and we don't know if it is) where does it state in either Bosnian or Croatian law that one's ethnic affiliation is automatically invalid if one declares to be something else? Do you have a paragraph you can quote on that? Timbouctou (talk) 21:57, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Oh boy... :D [3] - Yeah, it applies on Alkalaj - Quoting MUP: "Sven Alkalaj primljen je 2006. u hrvatsko državljanstvo Ministarstvo unutarnjih poslova priopćilo je danas da je Sven Alkalaj, ministar vanjskih poslova Bosne i Hercegovine (BIH), primljen u hrvatsko državljanstvo 2006., na temelju članka 16. Zakona o hrvatskom državljanstvu, odnosno na temelju pripadnosti hrvatskom narodu." Being a member of the Croatian narod is being a member of this ethnic group. You know that Serbs or Chinese can't be members of the Croatian narod, only građani i građanke. :) --K. Solin (talk) 22:00, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, and the other thing? Paragraph which says he magically stopped being a Jew? Did they print that in the tabloids you read as well? And if you really want to nitpick, the Croatian law is contradictory - according to the sentence you quoted it asks people to sign a statement that they are "hrvatski državljanin", not "hrvatske narodnosti". So basically the requirement for getting a Croatian citizenship is signing a statement saying literally that you "feel like a Croatian citizen" (but not necessarily an ethnic Croat). I find that pretty funny. Timbouctou (talk) 22:04, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, where he said he was a member of the Jewish nation? He was talking about being member of the Jewish religious group... the religious minority. Prove it otherwise...? :) Are you blind - it says a member of the Croatian narod can blah blah... So it assumes you are already member of the narod. :) Logic. Now, Croats are allowed to be Jews, right? --K. Solin (talk) 22:05, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

His Jewishness is in pretty much any political record of any political institution of Bosnia and Herzegovina he ever worked for. He was, is, and will continue to be an ethnic Jew, which - in terms of the troglodyte constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina - puts him in the "others" group. You know, "others" meaning not an ethnic Bosniak, Croat or Serb. His religious persuasion is irrelevant, which is why we don't talk about Catholics but Croats. Also, are YOU blind? Re-read the paragraph you quoted above: ... ako dade pisanu izjavu da se smatra hrvatskim DRŽAVLJANINOM." Timbouctou (talk) 22:12, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

He could be, as far as we know, be a member of cultural or religious minority. I know what the others means, regardless of the somewhat, offensive notion of the word. Yeah, if a member of the Croatian narod gives an statement. But if a Chinese does the same, he won't get the citizenship. :) --K. Solin (talk) 22:16, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

The very source you insist upon says Alkalaj claims to be an ethnic Croat in Croatia while continuing to be an ethnic Jew in Bosnia simultaneously. Which means one does not supersede the other, even if the claim was true, which we don't know, as interpreting this yourself constitutes WP:OR. Unless Alkalaj shows up and says yeah I'm a Croat, we have no reason to include it in the article as a known fact. Timbouctou (talk) 22:18, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

We're both wasting time on this issue. Declaring as this in one country and as that in another, says more about him as a character... well. I give up on this issue, it's not even important. I agree, he built his career on being a member of national minority... --K. Solin (talk) 22:25, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Per [4], the first name is pronounced [sʋêːn], with a pseudo-falling long vowel (just as in Swedish and Norwegian, tones are distinguished only in polysyllabic words that aren't stressed on the final syllable, as some loanwords are). The surname is either [âlkalaj] or [ǎlkalaj] (I'm terrible at distinguishing tone by ear). Per analogy with the word alkalan [ǎlkaːlan], it could be [ǎlkaːlaj]. But she pronounces the second vowel with a schwa-like quality, which is something that happens only to phonological short vowels in Bosnia. This leaves [âlkalaj] and [ǎlkalaj] as the only possibilities - unless the last vowel is long?!

EDIT: Another video: [5]. I'm gonna go ahead and put [sʋêːn âlkalaj] into the article. I'm 90% sure that's the right transcription. The short vowels aren't distinguished by tone in many parts of the Serbo-Croatian-speaking area anyway. They are in Bosnia, but often not outside it. So if anything, [âlkalaj] is just a non-local transcription (assuming that the vowel is rising in Bosnia, which I can't hear) because Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian constitute a single language with multiple standards, also standards of pronunciation (not codified in dictionaries apart from the Ekavian thing, which blindly follow Karadžić in indicating pronunciation). Sol505000 (talk) 10:27, 12 June 2021 (UTC)