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Reverts

[edit]
Iam sorry,

Since I started this edition and you reverted without explanation here in this page. Th eburden of proof is totaly on you. Ludovicapipa yes? 12:32, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You also deleted Lula da Silva and all benefits he is having with the privatization. Ludovicapipa yes? 12:33, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So why do you think an article about Telebrás should discuss the economic legacy of one president over another? You don't think that should be left to the article on Collor, FHC and Lula?--Dali-Llama 14:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No. Iam not talking abt someone´s legacay --I´m talking abt the benefits of privatization. Ludovicapipa yes? 16:49, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It´s relevant. It was FHC who privatized Telabrás...hahahahahah Give me a break! Ludovicapipa yes? 16:57, 4 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
How is talking about the economic policy of other presidents relevant when you've already mentioned privatization? Talking about political legacies is not relevant to an article about a particular company, other to mention that it was privatized and who did it when.--Dali-Llama 17:46, 4 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Third Opinion

[edit]

Issue on the relevancy of information, NPOV and SYN.

Ludovica has reverted my edits, and I would like a third opinion between both edits:

Dalillama's version:

Attempts at privatization began during Fernando Collor de Mello's administration in 1990, as part of an economic reform dubbed National Development Program (Portuguese: Programa Nacional de Desenvolvimento) designed by then-finance minister Zélia Cardoso de Mello[1] The privatization was successfully carried out some 8 years later during the administration of Fernando Henrique Cardoso, on July 29, 1998.[2]
Missing details
I´d like to see some post-privatization facts. Can you find citations for that? Ludovicapipa yes? 11:36, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"as part [citation needed]of an economic reform dubbed National Development Program (Portuguese: Programa Nacional de Desenvolvimento)". According to this talk, it is part of Plan Collor. [1].
So, this line should be removed. Ludovicapipa yes? 11:39, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Man, you really don't read your own sources. Read the Faucher paper.--Dali-Llama 15:30, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Where is Faucher here? Ludovicapipa yes? 15:47, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ludovica's

The privatization process started within the democratic elected Fernando Collor de Mello government. The so called Plano Collor was elaborated by his financial minister, Zélia Cardoso de Mello, first woman ever to take over this role.
Accoring to IMF´s director Anoop Singh[3], the continuity of this neoliberal program by the following presidents Fernando Henrique Cardoso and Lula da Silva can be exemplified, among other features, by the Embraer, Vale do Rio Doce and Acesita privatization. The implementation of this process initiated one of the world´s biggest privatization program [4] generating public debt relief and highly eficcient multinational companies. Telebrás was privatized during Cardoso´s administration.

Discussion

  • The source in Ludovica's paragraph (no. 3) does not mention privatization, and I question the relevancy of talking about political legacy between politicians in the article about one specific company.--Dali-Llama 21:51, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It´s not policital legacy --it´s economic policy. Whay was it privatized, who did, why, when. Once these important details are cited, cannot be deleted. Ludovicapipa yes? 11
28, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
  • While all the companies mentioned here have indeed been privatized, they were privatized by three different presidents in a span of 8 years. Again, why talk about particulars of policy in an article about the company?--Dali-Llama 21:51, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
For the same reaosn you asked me to provide details on Zelia´s. Yr comments on Zelia´s mention the need for details. Ludovicapipa yes? 11:28, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The last part, about what the process resulted in, shouldn't it be left to the article on the privatization program? And on that note, as it stands this violates WP:SYN (you're describing a conclusion without mentioning what the author said), and WP:PEACOCK (What about them "relieved debt" and made them "highly efficient multinational companies"--not that they're didn't become that, but it's certainly better to show, and not tell.) And on that note, whether or not they became highly efficient multinationals is perhaps something to be credited to the managers of the company, not the people who sold it. In any case, this last section should be remanded to the privatization program's article, not this one.--Dali-Llama 21:51, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If this detail is mentioned and cited, should remain there. Again: you change yr comments from "don´t detail this, don´t detail that"; and the you say "this must be detail", that should not be deatiled. Ludovicapipa yes? 11:28, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Only two items are relevant to Telebrás: "Telebrás was privatized during Cardoso´s administration," and "The so called Plano Collor was elaborated by his financial minister, Zélia Cardoso de Mello." The other items would be appropriate to debate for inclusion in an article about Brazilian political economy, but the greater historical implications of the de Mello administration are outside the scope of an article about this one company and its breakup. VisitorTalk 07:40, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Don´t you think this would make a too short artcile. Ludovicapipa yes? 11:28, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, Visitor,
As you can see, [[2]] he asked several details abt this article --he even desconsidered or ignored all citations and said they should be detailed ('once is cited, there is no need to offer further details). Once details are needed to on artcile, Zelia´s, I think they area also needed for the Telebras ´s article. Don´t you agree?
  • Providing details:
Why was Telebras privatized?
Who privatized?
When, for how much?
What was the economic policy by the time it was privatized?
What are the benefits of it? Tax income, expansion of telephoine services? Ludovicapipa yes? 11:06, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm editing according to Visitor's comments, as this is now the majority consensus until the issue is resolved.--Dali-Llama 15:29, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Scielo: Os efeitos da privatização sobre o desempenho econômico e financeiro das empresas privatizadas (in Portuguese)
  2. ^ Epstein, Jack.Unbundling Telebras. Time Magazine. August 10, 1998. Retrieved on September 4, 2007.
  3. ^ Lula segue política econômica de FHC, diz diretor do FMI (in Portuguese)
  4. ^ Scielo: Os efeitos da privatização sobre o desempenho econômico e financeiro das empresas privatizadas (in Portuguese)

No Faucher for a Zelai article!!

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I didn´t cite Faucher for Zelia´s. Only for Collor. Ludovicapipa yes? 15:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Lol. So he's good enough a source for Collor, but not for Zelia?--Dali-Llama 15:51, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

==AS YOU can see, you a´re the one not reading sources!!!! You dn´t even look for them --you are using all my link, sources, citationS to build yr versin --YR POV!

You thought this SCIELO was a Faucher --but it´s NOT!! It´s ANOTHER ARTiCLE!!!!
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0034-71402005000200001&script=sci_arttext
Ludovicapipa yes? 15:56, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

VERY UGLY: MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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hAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA 15:56, 6 September 2007 (UTC) YOU ARE THE ONE WHODOESN´T READE SOURCES.
FAcuher´s artcile is abt POLITICS --this one abt ECONOMY!!! MY GOOD GO'.15:56, 6 September 2007 (UTC)~

No sources -- ONLY POV!

[edit]
You see, you don´t read sources. You used WRONG sources, that don´t justify. And you didn´t read, and didn´t chekc, and even after all this, you said Iam the one not to read!!!!!!!!!!!!! HAhahahahahhaa Ludovicapipa yes? 16:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, now I just don't understand what you're saying. What's your point?--Dali-Llama 18:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What part you don´t get? read above: you said: Man, you really don´t read the sources, See Faucher, etc... Ludovicapipa yes? 18:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And then you used this "Faucher citation"(whihc WAS NOT CITED for this article) entitled SCIELO --you thougth was Faucher but it was naother one from SCIELO. SO, you are the one using my researches, my sources --in the wrong article, in the wrong paragrapgh without read!! Man, YOU DON`T READ THE SOURCES!!Ludovicapipa yes? 18:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ludovicapipa, please remove the mocking tone material, and make a clear point in a way that demonstrates an assumption of good faith on the part of your fellow editors. VisitorTalk 03:28, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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