Talk:The Amazing Race 5 contestants

This article was nominated for deletion on 15 February 2007. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Images

The images cannot be used in this context per the fair use rules. To make them acceptable, each section describing the contestants would have to specifically say "during the Amazing Race, the team participated in the following detours, and did….". Obviously this is a ridiculous concept, and thus the images cannot be used. Please note that the fair use rationale of the images as they stand is for "for identification and critical commentary on the station ID or program and its contents " and that is clearly not what is happening in this article. -- PageantUpdater • talk | contribs | esperanza 21:09, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The images as currently used do fit the crtieria. Their descriptions illustrate the show. Rather than deleting the images .... again ... why don't you help write an acceptable description. --evrik ^(talk) 21:15, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The fairuse criteria only allows screenshots for the description of The Amazing Race or The Amazing Race 5. They cannot be used for an article that simply describes contestants on the show. --Madchester 21:20, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This could be considered a subpage of the main page. In any case, I have consulted with some admins and feel strongly that the images are appropriate, and fit all the Wikipedia:Fair use criteria. Please cite the policy that proves your point - otherwise leave the images there. --evrik ^(talk) 21:23, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have already cited the policy: namely that the images must be used ONLY for "identification and critical commentary on the station ID or program and its contents ". The images are used for neither of those things. -- PageantUpdater • talk | contribs | esperanza 21:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please cite the WP Policy page where it states this. --evrik ^(talk) 21:48, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

See the tag {{TV-screenshots}} Basically, if you take a screenshot from an episode of TAR you can only use it to describe the main TAR article or that specific season's TAR article. Other uses such as putting them on your personal user page or a TAR contestant's biographical article is a violation of the fair use policy. --Madchester 21:54, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WP:FUC #8 says "The material must contribute significantly to the article (e.g. identify the subject of an article, or specifically illustrate relevant points or sections within the text) and must not serve a purely decorative purpose." What is the image showing? It can't be identifying the subject (a person) or it would fail FUC#1, since the person is still alive. And it can't be illustrating something specific that the person did, since that specific activity is not worth mentioning in the article (or if it were, it would not be important enough to merit a non-free image. You refer to unnamed admins you have consulted with, but I don't see anyone (besides yourself) advocating that we ignore the plain text of the TV-screenshot tag. – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 21:58, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My reading of the FU criteria gives me the understanding that an FU image can be used wherever the image can be used in a descriptive fashion – in this case a page that discusses the show where the images were drawn. MC said, "If you have a screenshot of an episode of TAR it can only be used in two articles: the main TAR article and that season's TAR article." Please cite where the policy says that (provide the link). Also, it was said that "Other uses are not permitted. For example, you can't use a screenshot of a contestant for their bio article on Wikipedia." Please link the page for that as well.

As for WP:FUC #8 … The identified image was showing a scene of contestants in the article, which is the relevant subject of the article – no one is named personally. I’d gladly put a free image in the article. Can you tell me where one can be had – failing that a non-free image is the best alternative? --evrik ^(talk) 23:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Again, read the {{TV-screenshot}} tag for the only applicable uses for a tv screenshot as a fairuse image. It can only be use to describe the television program pictured and not the contestants pictured. --Madchester 23:36, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yup, I've read it. "...for identification and critical commentary on the station ID or program and its contents ..." the image in question is for use on the contents of the proigram. Now, unless you have anything else, I believe I've met the burden of proof. --evrik ^(talk) 19:37, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- You seem to have misread it, as it has two components. The images aren't used for identification or critical commentary as it is meant in the rationale. I would suggest sucking up it and realising you're not going to get your way on this one. -- PageantUpdater • talk | contribs | esperanza 19:57, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The images can be used as such. The problem is not with the use of the image, but the caption that accompanies it. The caption can be written so the image meets all the criteria - you seem to ignore this fact. --evrik ^(talk) 20:45, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- It is not the caption that matters, it is the accompanying text. For example, I was unable to use Image:FarrellMTUSA03.jpg in the Tami Farrell article unless I specifically described what was happening in the image in the text (i.e. the subject of the image had to be notable to the article). See that image's talk page for more discussion of this. -- PageantUpdater • talk | contribs | esperanza 22:46, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why I removed the Prod tag

There are a number of individual articles about the contestants in the Amazing Race that already exist. Some of the articles about individual contestants have been deleted or redirected. Including summary biographies of each of the contestants on the The Amazing Race 5. Including a brief summary of who each of the contestants was not only makes the article more informative but reflects the whole nature of the show. Not including the information leaves out some critical information about the race.

Including this information on the Amazing Race 5 would make it larger and unwieldy, hence the creation of this subpage not only allows brief biographies of all the contestants, but helps make the original article more encylopedic. This is in keeping with both WP:NOT and meet WP:BIO for notability standards. --evrik ^(talk) 22:01, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Each contestant who appeared for this season is inherently non-notable per WP:BIO, except for the past beauty pageant contestants. The remaining racers lack any significant accomplishments outside of the Race. The details on this page are merely taken from the bioraphies on CBS' Amazing Race page; a link to the official site is already provided on the external links of The Amazing Race 5. Unless siginificant post-Race accomplishments can be found on third parties (namely non-CBS affiliated sources), it fails WP:BIO. See the policy for further details.

Again, creating a subpage compiling a list of non-notable individuals does not increase the notability of the topic. --Madchester 22:15, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(I was asked to comment here by a post on the WP:PROD talk page) Agreed, however, PROD is not the way to do this (if someone objects, as evrik clearly does). Take it to AfD. JesseW, the juggling janitor 22:40, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

References

I have just spent a mind-numbing hour and a quarter adding references and expanding this article, but I feel what I have achieved proves it can (and should) be done. Please note that I have done my best to remove links to sources I feel are un-reliable (particularly "realitytvworld.com") and instead focussed on trying to find sources from reputable news media sources. I'm burned out right now but will go back and finish this off later. I would suggest that if the article is kept and the decision is made to create similar articles for the other seasons, there should be a focus on correctly sourcing the article. -- PageantUpdater • talk | contribs | esperanza 03:08, 18 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Page name

There is nothing to discuss. The name of the show is The Amazing Race. The name of the associated articles are The Amazing Race 1, The Amazing Race 2 and so on. Contestant articles should follow the naming convention of the program and of the existing articles. Otto4711 23:09, 22 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. The show is The Amazing Race. Please follow some sense of consistency in the naming of articles. --Madchester 02:18, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The show is referred to also as the Amazing Race. also, if you look at http://www.cbs.com/primetime/amazing_race5, you'll see that CBS itself refers to the show both ways. If you feel strongly about it I won't oppose it, but do me a favor and go change the redirects for the artilces not made as well. As I load those pages they will all be uniform. --evrik ^(talk) 23:21, 22 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox

The infobox adds some relevant information to the article. --evrik ^(talk) 20:44, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]