Talk:Five-Percent Nation/Archive 1
- 1 From a Five Percenter's point of view...
- 2 Unanswered Questions
- 3 Peace...
- 4 Not so Foolish...
- 5 Devils
- 6 This page is bullshit
- 7 Changing POV tag?
- 8 Added Unreferenced Tag
- 9 Copyedit
- 10 website
- 11 Recent expansion
- 12 PoV
- 13 Removed the Five Percent Buddhist Nation Link
- 14 OR
- 15 Minor Problem
- 16 Origin of Five-Percent title Section
- 17 Explaining edits
- 18 New external link added
- 19 I deleted an entry to the article and added a needed citation
- 20 Supreme Mathematics and Supreme Alphabet
- 21 "Blackman"
- 22 What happened to...?
- 23 Comment by Intelligence
- 24 Only one online source?
- 25 Allah
- 26 Citations Needed
- 27 Citations for notable current and former members and associates of the 5%
- 28 Famous members
- 29 Time to archive this talk page
- 30 Supreme Mathematics corrections
- 31 Comment by Bornking7
- 32 Awkward math/explanation in very first paragraph.
- 33 The 120 Lessons
- 34 Please use reliable sources
- 35 Racist ideology
- 36 How many followers?
- 37 In Popular Culture
From a Five Percenter's point of view...
Peace to all...
I must begin by saying that upon my first reading of this article, I as a member of the Nation of Gods and Earths was offended. Not because of anything in particular that was said, but because of the obvious lack of input from an actual member of the Nation. This logically could not produce an objective, unbiased body of facts regarding the Five Percent Nation. I, Allah Universal, have begun to edit the article accordingly, to ensure that there is no distortion of our foundation. The teachings of the Nation of Gods and Earths, in their original form, is best transmitted orally, and as with any other oral tradtion, the teachings cannot be fully desribed, or understood for that matter, by one who has not gone under the study, by contacting a verified member who can trace his words back to the origin, Allah himself.
- Wow so you're saying written language has no point? Passing things on orally always ends up with some distortion. It is physically impossible for you to tell me what Allah himself said. There will be plenty of things that have been altered by each storyteller. If Allah said these things of dire importance...why on Earths would no one write it down? Humans are imperfect...and believe it or not the 5% are still human. No one can possibly remember a wealth of information word for word. Also, unless you trust every single person how do you know people aren't retelling things with their own point of view attached? Again, people will continually distort and tell a further distorted versions.Deathwish238 00:05, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
- For one second can you not look at things through a western point of view?? I guess that would be a hard thing to do because you would have to realize all the conditions that have been placed upon you, the total unbiased review. For you to place such an importance on words is an illusion. 95% of communication is nonverbal. Plus, the spoken word was invented to explain certain feelings, but some feelings must be felt. No words can describe them because the word doesn't exist or they do not give the feeling justice. Unlike the Americanized game of operator or whatever that game was called where you relay a message and the message was totally different by the time it came around, oral traditions worked. I know you know of The Odyssey, that was an oral tradition. Many differnet cultures use this device to past down rituals, history, etc. etc. It seems to me the people that started writing history are the ones that have distorted history. Always trying to hide something or another. Or promote their ideology. (Why did Constantine have to edit the bible?) When will we wake up and realize that we have a limitless capability in this universe. Jesus came to show how love is the answer, yet they just made a glorious story out of him as well as a cult. He was not here to start a religion. He was here to save the world. Now instead we are busy killing other people and his words have been left in the past. Maybe if his stories were passed down in oral traditions we would be living in a totally differnet world. Peace and Love, Woking on the Changejbm0912
This is not intended to disrespect to anyone who has added on to the article, for I have no reason to believe that any misinformation was posted with malicious intentions. My efforts are merely an exercise in proofreading, and should not be taken any other way. I have hopes that post editing, the Nation of Gods and Earths will be studied & better understood, and not labeled stereotypically. I thank you dear readers, for your time...
Peace, Allah Universal email@example.com
- Also, is your name legally Allah Universal? Deathwish238 00:05, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone contribute to the article to answer the logic behind Blackman and Blackwoman being the original fathers and mothers of all people that nuture children? It is my understanding that by that definition white people would be included in "all people" that are descended from Blackman and Blackwoman and are their "children." How can the group claim to nurture children if it excludes some of it's own children by their own definition, exclusion being a predecessor to self-destruction? It seems to me they either have an incomplete and oxy-moronic doctrine, or the article is missing important information. It also seems to me the members of the group would be just as successful in claiming self reliance if they were atheists that simply tried to be commanders of their own life and future, so can the article provide a background as to why divinity of any kind had to play a role in lifting up the oppressed? Does one have to claim superiority over others to feel better about themselves? I think a previous poster pointed out the hypocrisy considering the movement was in part meant to counter white supremacy. Does making one out to be God or god-like solve any of the critical answers facing the people that are meant to be helped? Claiming to be something one is not can turn others away from an otherwise positive message, so can the article attest to any negative repercussions the group's claims of divinity have caused, be it regarding indoctrination or spreading of the message? In this regard I feel the article is incomplete.
...I'm Allah Universal, standing member of the Nation of Gods and Earths...If anyone has serious inquiries regarding what we teach, what we do and don't advocate, what we strive to achieve in this world, or even if you're just curious, you can reach me directly at firstname.lastname@example.org, or email@example.com...Please be sure to leave our name, so that I can respond to your appropriately. No inquiry will be rejected, and all will be addressed respectfully. All questions will be answered to the best of my ability...Peace...Allah Universal
184.108.40.206 07:57, 2 November 2006 (UTC)Allah Universal
Not so Foolish...
Peace to Musa from the Bronx... Not that your post needs to be addressed, however, it seems to me that you have a personal grudge against the Nation of Gods & Earths. Why, I know not (I'm not All Knowing, which is why I continue to study myself & educate myself, as any wise man does)...Your post is very general, and shows that you have limited yourself to one particular realm of study pertaining to Islam, tunnel vision, if you will. This is one reason why "fundamentalist" Muslims are being targeted & attacked to this day, & why the Nation of Islam is pigeonholed as a racist, or hate group...You must be willing to change with the times, and not hold on to the dogma that keeps people seperated...No one group, religion, nation, etc. has a monopoly on Knowledge & Truth, we must all share what we have for the benefit of all...There are modern-day Pharoahs that seek to destroy you, me AND our respective cultures for their own selfish gains (G.old, O.il, & D.iamonds), THEY are the ones that we need to be worried about!!!
Did not the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) say that "To acquire knowledge is binding upon all Muslims"? To seek knowledge one must do so objectively, not with religious fervor. The Prophet himself was open to seeking knowledge from all people that he came across, from all walks of life, before he received his mission in the year 610 A.D. He earned his station in Life by doing so. I was a praticing Sunni Muslim in my younger days, and I know that tolerance is required from a Muslim. Not to judge or criticize you, but that is not what you are showing. To add on, the Faithful Companion Imam Ali (PBUH), cousin, & son-in-law of the Prophet (PBUH), 2nd only to Khadijah (PBUH) to accept the Prophet's (PBUH) teachings, said "Knowledge and wisdom are really the privilege of a faithful Muslim. If you have lost them, get them back even though you may have to get them from the apostates." If you consider The Nation of Gods & Earths to be apostates, that's fine, it takes nothing from Us, however, it is still incumbent upon you to tolerate Our existence, and to learn from Us, to figure out the time you are living in, and the reason for Our existence...Peace be upon you...
Moving on... The following is a conversation resulting from my posts on this page...This may clear up some of the misconceptions of the Nation of Gods and Earths, & if not, I can be reached directly at firstname.lastname@example.org........................................................................................................................
How is all?
My name is xxxxx, a Northern-European seeking information on the Nation of Gods and Earths.
One of the things I've been wondering about is if a white man doesn't do devilishment, then he isn't a devil? I believe your teachings say anyone who does devilishment is a devil, correct? But since the story of Yakub says (I believe) that the white race is a race of devils, doesn't that make them devils for all eternity? What is the most righteous (so to speak) a white man can be?
Another thing I was wondering about, is if the Nation of Gods and Earths is international, if they exist in other countries except North-America?
I'd also like to know if there is something you believe is important to know about the Nation of Gods and Earths and their teachings.
And forgive me if any of the information I have is incorrect, I mean no offense at all.
Thanks for sharing the information, I truly appreciate it.
Thanks for your interest & questions...I'm at work at the moment, so I'll be answering your questions in a few hours once I get home...Don't worry about having something wrong, one who doesn't know can't be held responsible...Peace...Au
- So ignorance is bliss? I find it hard to learn about something when there is little to no information about it. I'm trying to learn about NGE simply because I find it...intriguing. However I cannot judge something without atleast trying to understand it first.Deathwish238 00:24, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your inquiry. I tend to be straightforward, so I'll get right to your answers...
One of the things I've been wondering about is if a white man doesn't do devilishment, then he isn't a devil? I believe your teachings say anyone who does devilishment is a devil, correct? But since the story of Yakub says (I believe) that the white race is a race of devils, doesn't that make them devils for all eternity? What is the most righteous (so to speak) a white man can be?
Good Question, not one that can be asked, nor answered objectively by most. To understand the answer thoroughly, you have to look at the word "devil", the etymology of it, and the connotations associated with this word.
The English word devil derives via Middle English devel and Old English dēofol and Latin Diábolus, from Late Greek Diabolos, meaning, slanderer, from diaballein, to slander: dia-, across + ballein, to hurl.
Here in the Southern part of the US, a common phrase (although based in religion) is "the devil is a liar". The word devil is properly associated with one who "throws" slander, or lies at another for the sake of personal gain. This is the experience of the Original People in the US, in our dealings with Caucasians, we have been lied to as well as lied on, and still are. This is not to say that Original People are not capable of the same, however Caucasians have gained a HUGE worldly advantage through deception, hence Elijah Muhammad's readiness in calling them devils. Also, look at how war has evolved, from hand-to-hand combat, to the "throwing" of all types of devices, from bullets to bombs, all built only to destroy human life.
- Jeez you opened up a huge can of worms. First off, by devil we all pretty much assume a devil is a purely evil being...not a liar. There is a word for someone who lies...and it is not devil.
- Also, are you meaning to imply that black men(or how about nonwhite men in general) do not slander or lie for the sake of personal gain?
- Another point...you're criticizing how war has evolved. War has evolved with technology. War is also a natural part of humanity. People fight wars for various reasons...and while you can put it simplistically "to destroy human life"...pretty much every war is fought to protect their beliefs and one's families. So war is in a way to preserve human life. Wars were originally fought for land to grow food on...would you say that is wrong?Deathwish238 00:24, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the connotations of the word devil, it's commonly associated with everything evil, when looked at from a religious perspective (read: psychological conditioning). Keep in mind that The Nation Of Gods and Earths doesn't adhere to religion, and We aren't using the word in that way; also keep in mind that our lessons are very general, for they are meant to be a starting point for further research into the Sciences of Life. To keep it simple, a devil is one who deviates, in the sense of manipulating natural law, or rebelling against it. In the last 6,090+ years, the Earth has seen destruction at it's finest at the hands of mankind, resulting in the ruptured ozone layer, widespread pollution of air, land & water, global warming, etc.
Now, regarding the story of Yacub, it's only genetic engineering & eugenics at work, just simplified. It's a well known & documented fact at this point in time, that the Original People are physically & mentally dominant.
- Source? Sounds like more "facts" without any factual evidence behind it to me Deathwish238 00:24, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Not better, just dominant. Basic biology shows that all people carry both dominant and recessive traits. The Yacub story is nothing more than selective breeding, whereby those Originals with recessive traits were favored for reproduction, and those with dominant traits were culled off. This process, after approximately 600 years, allowed for a "race" with mostly recessive traits to be born. This is how white rabbits, white lab rats & mice, etc., are brought about, excluding albinos, they don't exist in nature. The Caucasian was brought about via deviation from nature (Darwin's Natural Selection/survival of the fittest), thus, the term devil. By nature, an Original person is Righteous, and any deviation from Righteousness, is of course, devilishment. So, being that a Caucasian is a deviation of Man's nature by default, the inbred nature is indeed devilishment. How Righteous a Caucasian can be, depends on his/her will & desire to "go against the grain", so to speak, to try & be Righteous. Again, just as an Original can deviate from their nature, so can a Caucasian. On the other side of the same coin, I am a God, not because I have a superiority complex, or some grandiose delusion, & not because I have a "holier than thou" approach to people. It's not because I feel the need to be worshipped, or to amass some great cult-like following. It's not because I'm a chauvanist who needs to place myself above a woman to "feel" powerful. It's not due to any hatred for Caucasians, because I've never had any (hate the deed, not the person). It's because I'm an Original Man, living to the best of my ability according to my Righteous nature. I'm in-deed a dominant being on Earth, setting things aright where I have the power to do so. In the more general sense, there is no being superior to the Black Man that has been shown & PROVEN to exist, beyond the faith of the well-intended who misunderstand the creative powers that exist within them. Removing all religious connotations, I'm no supernatural phenomenon, I'm a Natural Man, plain & simple...And there has NEVER been a seperation of Man & God, for the two are one & the same, always have been & always will be...
Another thing I was wondering about, is if the Nation of Gods and Earths is international, if they exist in other countries except North-America?''
Yes, there are Gods and Earths outside of the US. I know for sure of the Nation's existence in Canada & England, possibly Australia, recently heard of some in South America, I've answered questions from a Brother in Ghana. There's also Brothers & Sisters in the corporate world, & the US Military, so those two are other means for Our teachings to travel abroad. Everywhere We go, Our teachings go, and with the Internet nowadays, it makes it that much easier to reach out to the world from Our living rooms, hence this conversation...
- Then why are there only a handful of websites about NGE? If it's so widespread I'ld expect to see websites originating from outside of the USA in languages other than English as wellDeathwish238 00:24, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I'd also like to know if there is something you believe is important to know about the Nation of Gods and Earths and their teachings.
Yes, to sum up Our Teachings, We are Civilized People who do not be-lie-ve anything, We study so that We take nothing on face value, specifically religious teachings, and we bear witness that there is no unseen god to come and save, nor judge, humanity. We teach that all of the human families of the planet Earth deserve Freedom, Justice, & Equality. All of the "mysteries" of Life can be explained via Mathematics & Science, even those things that have yet to be "discovered". We are not Pro-black, nor are We Anti-White, We are Pro-Righteousness, & Anti-Devilishment.
- I'm yet to read a source define "Devilishment" Deathwish238 00:24, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Basically, We are normal, everyday People who acknowledge Our Divinity, and strive to Live accordingly. There's nothing really mystical, or even fantastic about our teachings, because what We have been teaching for the last 42 years, in simple terms that people can Understand, has been & is being revealed & "discovered" daily in the Information Age, by any & everyone from the elite scientific community, to the common layman.
I hope that this gives you a bit more insight into the Nation of Gods and Earths, and our teachings, I have to say however, that this is not even the tip of the iceberg. There's a lot much more to what we teach than what you can see on face value, because We teach Life & how to Live it. Feel free to ask anything else that comes to mind, I'll be more than glad to assist you...
Peace... Allah Universal
220.127.116.11 07:32, 2 November 2006 (UTC)Allah Universal
The above reply from "Allah Universal" sums it up pretty well. Typical paranoid racist diatribe. Perhaps all religions, including Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam and other ancient religions, had similarly divisive, farcical and hateful origins and rhetoric, but that does not mean that modern, 21st century, humans should suffer their continued creation. Are we to now elevate every lunatic that claims to be "god" and preaches a "doctrine" to the same level as Christ and Mohammed in the name of relativism? We have too many religions already. There is no need for self-proclaimed prophets who in reality are violent criminals to be given serious acknowledgement. The real details of the lives of Christ, Mohammed and Buddha are lost to ancient history, but I think we can safely make the reasonable assumption that a guy from the 1960s was not "god". Bending over backwards to find import and meaning in delusional "teachings" like this lends them a legitimacy they do not deserve. They are of historical significance in that they are a part of the backlash to institutional racism in the US, and a darker aspect of the Civil Rights movement, but that should be the extent and tone of the coverage.
The Wiki should be a scholarly and secular work based on a scientific approach. Religions and cults have their own online compendiums from which they can evangelize. A "belief system" that espouses such fallacies as "caucasians are a recessive deviation from the true man" and that it is in their nature to be "devilish" but that they can strive to "not be devilish" and that the "blackman" is "the true man" should be noted and documented for historical interest (perhaps under the category of abnormal psychology), but rightly called out as being no better than any other racist manifesto.
Human life originated in Africa at a time before modern homo sapiens existed. That our pre-human ancestors wandered from Africa to cover the earth and evolved traits based on the environments in which they settled is a wondrous and beautiful thing that is perverted by garbage like this. Instead of mis-quoting Darwin and abusing real science, maybe these "gods and prophets" should try learning something about real evolutionary theory, biology and anthropology.
One final point; the comparisons to Judaism made by a previous poster are at best a specious argument. If there are parallels between this "NGE" manifesto and any of the organized religions' manifestos, then those religions should be rightly called out as well. No "religion" that seeks to pervert science in order to justify a doctrine of intrinsic defacto racism should be considered acceptable. Rather than drawing a parallel to Judaism, why not draw a parallel to nazism or White Supremacy? I see far more similarities there. The thin camaflouge of "neutrality" in the NGE "teachings" does very little to disguise the hateful intent that is quite evident below the surface. I see no deliberately hateful intent in the Torah (or the Quran) but, if it *is* there, it should also be called out as being despicable and unacceptable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk • contribs)
- 22.214.171.124, if you feel the article is POV you may edit it to be unbiased. ReverendG 05:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
So, "Allah Universal" you are saying that the Five Percenters don't hate anyone, and would therefore have room in their ranks for white middle class athiests? Can you name a white man who is a member of NGE or even the NOI?
There are white people in The Nation of Gods in Earths. I in fact know of one, and he is a very very respectful and lucid individual. Considering some of the responses here, I will not divuldge his name. I do not agree with everything in the Nations teachings. I do however agree that if everything they taught outside of the race factor was taken into consideration, it would be hold value. Uplifting children, self-esteem, and creating awareness of yourself will always be a positive thing for any race...Keep the knowledge and do away with the emotional bias. Believing in yourself and your community is what can help empoer you, but bringing down anyone to do it is not.... 18:32, 6 December 2006 (UTC)DSpunky
ANSWER pt. 2----
Peace... Allah Universal here...addressing the above questions (the last ones at least), the Nation of Gods & Earths does not teach hate of any group, that's not to say that individual members will not display hate toward Caucasians or others. That's the choice of the individual. Also, allow me to make a quick distinction...The Nation of Gods & Earths is only part of the 5%...the 5% consists of individuals from all walks of life, accepting our (NGE) teachings is not a prerequisite. A 5%er for all intents & purposes, is a civilized person who does not believe in mainstream religious teachings, or in any teaching that oppresses people, and I consider, for example, Robert Anton Wilson to be of the 5%, because he speaks the Truth to educate & enlighten the masses, regardless to his religious or philisophical orientation (neither of which I have knowledge of). Another that comes to mind is George Carlin. A white atheist would be more than welcome to study Allah's teachings, so long as he/she is sincere and willing to teach others. A member of the Nation of Gods & Earths, who is still alive to my knowledge, is Azreal, who was taught personally by Allah in the late 60's. Barry Gottehrer, Mayor Lindsay's assistant in that time, was also a 5%er (quick reference can be found here: ). I don't know any others personally, I know that they exist, just haven't met them. As for the NOI, they are a seperate entity, I can't speak for them really, but as far as I know, they have no Caucasian members.
- You really think NOI has no Caucasian members? You must be more ignorant than I thoughtDeathwish238 00:24, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
The rest I will address as time permits... Peace... Allah Universal
so george carlin is an NGOE member, or his work is similar to the NGOE teachings?
Hi. I'm from germany, so i might be missinformed. But isn't it so, that the NGE and NOI says that all white men are devils? You often here that devil-talk in many hiphop music, too. So they are hating white people and call all of them devils and they have a clearly racist mythology. They seperate people by colour of skin and not by actions and deeds, which means nothing else, that it is racist. Why isn't that pointed out in the article clearly? I mean, all that devil talk and yakub story certainly ins't made up by people outside of these cults... (please someone answer in short and straight forward answers without dodging. Its an easy question.)
Peace... I'll to answer your questions as directly as possible, as well as expond on the topic, I'd be unjust not to do so...
To be frank with you, yes, many members of both the NGE & NOI do call all white people devils. I've even done so when I was in training, without understanding what I was doing. Here is the basis of this...The folowing is from the Lost-Found Muslim Lessons, which Elijah Muhammad (former leader of the NOI) gave to his followers as a study guide...
2*, 1-10] Q: Who is the colored man? A: The colored man is the Caucasian (white) man, OR Yacub's grafted devil of the Planet Earth. (emphasis on the word OR is mine)
(note: this is the NGE version of this lesson; the NOI's version, in the words of Elijah Muhammad says "...grafted devil, skunk of the Planet Earth." The NGE does not use the word "skunk" in this lesson, because it has no place in the REAL meaning of this lesson, which I will get into)
I'll be the first to say that many members of both groups, as well as outsiders, take this lesson and run with it...Without proper exegesis, it's hogwash, Calling all white people evil (devil is not synonymous with evil, devil in essence means "one who slanders), and not examining individual's intentions & deeds, is no different than calling all Muslims terrorists because of their choice of religion, or even calling all NGE members racist. The NOI is infamous for generalizing in this fashion, and personally, that's why I never joined them. Members of the NGE, that is, those who are serious teachers/students would not do this (name-calling/generalizing). And yes, it seems to be racist. It matters not to a true 5%er what color a person's skin is (it's a difference in melanin content), what matters is the MIND of a person. This is the esoteric side of our teachings, which very few hear about, but it's quite easy to understand...
Elijah Muhammad was a freemason (3rd Degree Master Mason), and due to his oaths, he could not say certain things outright, so his lessons need to be "decoded", if you will. Simply replace the word "man" with "mind", & the above lesson takes on new meaning. A colored (as opposed to an original/righteous) mind is a corrupted mind, which seeks to supplant another. The meaaing of Yacub/Jacob is literally "the supplanter". Those who have promoted white supremacy have done this for centuries. That, is racism in action. Racism is learned behavior, it's not natural, therefore, it "colors" the mind. Also, a racist, by definition, has the resources to impose his beliefs onto an indiviual or group, on an institutional level. Neither the NOI, nor the NGE, possesses those resources. By definition, they cannot be racist. Just as Prussian Blue cannot be racist.
The NOI & KKK were/are two extremes here in the US, polar opposites both founded in the midst of "racial tension", with their focus being on race as a factor of righteousness. The NGE is ideally the middle ground, a bridge between those two. Of course, with most members being black, there's a bias, yet, in due time, with proper understanding (by members & outsiders) of what we seek to acheive (Freedom, Justice, Equality, Collective Consciousness, Community Control, & Peace for all on Earth), aside from our controversial teachings, there will no longer be a need for dicussions such as this one.
I hope that this was straight forward enough for you...if not, please contact me @ the email address above for further discussion...
It's me again. Thank for the answer. But I have to disagree in some points. The KKK is clearly racist but still laks power over institutions (save for some regional areas maybe. On a very local level). The german NPD (half-legal follower of the Nazi-party) is very small and virtually powerless, but they are still racist. And even if one would interpret the writings of elijah muhammed the way you do it, it still remains only an interpretion. No one can say that you are right with you're interpretation. You maybe right or you may be wrong. But it is more importand, that many people certainly won't interpret the writings the way you do, as you said yourself. Instead they will use the racist way to interpret them. So shouldn't the racism issue and the devilism at least be discussed in the article?
Furthermore, i don't think that society needs eather groups as NOI, KKK or even the NGE. If people would stop thinking so much about virtualy unimportand factors as race and colours, racism wouldn't exist in the first place (thats just my opinion and of corse has not directly to do with the article). I don't think that NGE is the middle group. The middle group is probably to belong to no group at all.
Peace from an agnostic german
Peace... You are Right & Exact in what you say...Anyone who limits themselves to ANY one way of thinking, becomes a victim of self-imposed tunnel vision...Study everything, don't become it at the cost of becoming other than your own self... Peace... Allah Universal
that sounds like bruce lee: "when one has no form, one can be all forms; when one has no style, he can fit in with any style."
RE: white devils, yacub, etc. i think it would be helpful for someone to clarify how much of this parable / explanation is transmitted from the NOI to NGE and accepted, whether it is taken literally, etc. if many members believe that white men were literally created in caves via eugenics over the course of 600 years, that bears mention, i think. i am not really clear, in general, on how much of the more paranoid and racist stuff from the early NOI is passed down through NGE. being an oral tradition, obviously this will vary based on the speaker, but i think it merits some scrutiny. quite frankly, most of the 5%ers i know represent the teachings of knowledge, justice and equality in public, but also harbor some paranoid racist myths, like the one mentioned above, when they speak candidly. just my own experience, i am nobody's judge. peace from wash heights. -nothumb
This page is bullshit
What a bunch of racist retarded bullshit. Be honest that you hate white and Jews, you smarmy retards. The most important thing is a lot of popular rappers follow this racist nonsense. Whenning 04:56, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- First off, not all that many "popular rappers" follow the Nation of Gods and Earths. A few rappers, who aren't all that popular anymore (Wu-Tang Clan, Busta Rhymes, and Big Daddy Kane. Second, I don't know where Jews came from here, but only the idea of white supremacy is the only thing really attacked. As for smarmy, no, these are good people in the same vein as Orthodox Jews and Shia Muslims. By the way, "retarded"? "Retards"? What is wrong with you? ReverendG 07:04, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- Your response is amazingly intellectually dishonest. Wu-Tang Clan and Busta Rhymes aren't popular? It's far more than that, as well: Rakim, Brand Nubian, and many others. Wu-Tang has sold millions of albums; just because someone isn't currently on the Top 40 charts doesn't mean they aren't successful. Where Jews come in is that it's well-known that typical people drawn to this ridiculous pseudo-religion/quasi-cult that you ascribe ridiculously grandiose titles to are anti-Semitic and racist. That's why at the recent New Black Panther Party protests in response to the shooting of Sean Bell people were encouraging other blacks not to patronize white-owned businesses. I'd ask what's wrong with you, "reverend". Whenning 23:28, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
why are you so angry at something you be-lie-ve to be untrue, i can feel the anger in your comments, further more why would you even waste your time on this site if you didn't think that there was sum truth in what is being said on here. Read the text with a open mind and maybe you'll get the way it was actually suppose to be interpretated, instead of coming with your ignorant responses. Allah universal has tried to answer questions posed at the 5%ers for your benefit not his. BLESS 126.96.36.199 17:10, 3 February 2007 (UTC) Prophetp 4rom the U.K
I have no idea where most of you people get ur information but ya'll are incorrect. I myself am a member of the Nation of Gods and Earths. And yes we do believe that we are Gods and Queens. But, In no way shape or form are we a racist group. If U remember correctly Malcolm X followed into the Nation of Gods and Earths when he left the Nation of Islam. Malcolm himself left because he knew that what was taught in the NOI was wrong. We are not a Anti-white group, nor are we pro-BLACK. We endorse and promote in the positive and correct teachings of life. We look at history and apply it to our daily lives knowing that the mistakes in the past strengthen us in the future. If you are a 10% that is the only way that you would even think that we are negative. We spread Peace and positive upbringings. I dunno what magazine ya'll read, or what reporter told ya'll wrong but ya'll have the complete misunderstanding of us. We strive off of gaining knowledge, wisdom(e) and having the abilty to obtain a correct understanding. So once again, we are not a gang. And we do not condone in any form of destruction. Whether it be physically, or mentally. Only positive Buildings. PEACE!!! I-Talib Ali Allah OWT!!!
WTF....... You quoted " If U remember correctly Malcolm X followed into the Nation of Gods and Earths
when he left the Nation of Islam. Malcolm himself left because he knew that what was taught in the NOI was wrong."
1st. What ever possessed you to even utter such a lie? Malcolm X left the nation
because he found out that Elijah was a fraud, plain and simple. Malcolm witnessed that there were white skinned man right next to him in Mecca while praying. Malcolm was told the same lie that all white man are devils, so why on earth was he praying with a bunch of white muslim devils?
2nd. Malcolm never in his life turned to the racist Nation of Gods and Earth! That CULT didn't come to life until after is death. 3rd. Malcolm became a Sunni Muslim and forsaked all that Master Fart Muhammud bullcrap.
That is the reason why The Nation killed him.
Changing POV tag?
Instead of arguing over whether or not one agrees with 5% ideology, what can we do to get this article NPOV? It would be nice to include a section on the 5% take on the "white devil" issue, but research is so scant on this topic that it's hard to determine. Also, the "in-depth scholarly article" is not so in-depth, as I've discovered in my own research, so I've changed that. While the information is good, he glosses over some stuff. Knittatron 00:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- Is there anyway to request moderation on this article from the greater Wiki community? I have attempted to make substantive changes to this work over time and feel constantly thwarted by a small but dedicated band of 5% apologists. Ason Abdullah 03:09, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
- I'm pretty new to WP, so any suggestions you have would be very helpful. I'll try to request moderation. I think that it is helpful to have Fiver Percenters work on this article, but the article needs to reflect the most objective presentation of NGO. This is hard for this article due to the sheer lack of scholarly sources on the topic, all of which treat NGO as a culture/way of life/political movement OR a religion, but not both, for whatever reason.Knittatron 17:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
- The official website has virtually no information. This seems like a futile task. How do you document something that has less documentation than the latest failed video game?Deathwish238 00:28, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Added Unreferenced Tag
I added this tag because while there is some good info in this article, there are no sources whatsoever. I am currently overwhelmed by work and school, but I do have some sources as I have done research on this topic. It may take me awhile to dig them up. Knittatron 17:43, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
|This article, or a portion of it, was copyedited by the Guild of Copyeditors in April 2007. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
The offical website looks like it was made by amateurs....and it contains little information! If you can't learn about The Nation of Gods and Earths from their offical website where can you? It seems like it has more advertisments than anything else.
Check it out if you haven't already: http://www.allahsnation.net/
The only thing it has is a page called What We Teach...and it even has a dead link at the bottom. ---Deathwish238 16:35, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I will be updating the article main space shortly with sourcing for all that I am adding, please be patient. Thank you. --SevenOfDiamonds 17:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I removed the PoV tag, please place any pov based issues here for discussion. Thank you. --SevenOfDiamonds 20:37, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
The whole thing is "POV." All that is necessary is an explanation of 5% doctrine. No promotion of 5% is acceptable. I'd put a "racism" tag on it, as well as "pseudohistory" and "fascism." That's my "POV." JBDay 02:26, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Removed the Five Percent Buddhist Nation Link
The youtube video it pointed to is no longer available.
- Five Percent Buddhist Nation —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 19:47, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Can someone explain the OR violation here? I get why the one section is OR (comparing 5% to mainstream Islam; no sources and it looks like an original essay), but most of the rest of the article seems pretty consistent with what is published about these folks. csloat (talk) 05:55, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Uh, per the presidential unit citation page, only military units are eligible for the presidential unit citation. Mr. Smith couldn't have received it, though he could have belonged to a unit that received it. 184.108.40.206 (talk) 23:24, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
Origin of Five-Percent title Section
What does it mean to "punitively liberate?" Is this a term used by the organization itself? This would seem to mean that the organization "sets people free while punishing them," or "punishes them by setting them free." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 20:07, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
- No. Not a single Five Percenter I've ever known or any writing I've come across has used such a term. Where it could have possibly come from is beyond me.Kuahmel (talk) 08:02, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Hello. Just letting you all know I changed some of the occurrences of the word "Allah" to the name Clarence as, outside of the sect, he was still being referred to as Clarence and not "Allah." Now, I may be wrong about this, and maybe he legally changed his name to Allah and people used that to refer to him even outside the sect, and if that is the case, feel free to revert my edits as needed. The only other edit I made was what seems to be a spelling error. I changed "adapt" to "adopt" in the line "he adopted the name Allah." Again, if I am wrong here and it should in fact say "he adapted the name Allah (as in adapted it to his own preference)", then again, please feel free to revert my edits as you see fit. It appears in the history that I made three edits but really it was just one....that I happened to do in three sections. lol. Either way, yeah. Just letting you know. Take care all! (^_^) --Ksskimaan 01:32, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- You got kinda carried away. The two schools in New York City are genuinely referred to as "Allah Schools." This is clearly marked on both buildings. I made the appropriate edits.Kuahmel (talk) 08:31, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
In the part talking about Hip-Hop artists who are active Five Percenters, I have taken out the names Wyclef Jean, Erykah Badu, JusT, Thizz-N-Livin, and Kingcutie. Badu, for example, has publicly stated she is not a part of the NGE. And there is no searchable record of any of the latter three, making it possible it could be simply some rappers attempting to promote themselves on Wikipedia. Besides, the names left behind are more than enough for the reader to get the idea that many rappers speak 5% ideas.Kuahmel (talk) 08:31, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
UPDATE: This is a frequently edited article, drastically altered from previous years. With the edit done at this date, I've tried to clean up and reflect more accurately, clearly, and in different words what the Five Percent Nation is all about. For example with the name, I've left the references of "Clarence (13X/Smith)" where appropriate, but changed most of those further down the timeline to "Allah" or "The Father." This was to show that he was noways calling himself or referred to by most anyone else as "Clarence 13X" when he cut ties to the Nation of Islam. This was the most pragmatic and objective way to handle it, though people who feel some kinda way about him or the Nation will have issues. I feel that unless a better compromise is agreed upon, this is how it should be presented.Kuahmel (talk) 08:18, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
While I do not see there being any official 5%er or Nation of Gods and Earths website (because they have no centralized leader or location) the Allah Team's main website should be included as the first of the links because it gives us the best scholar like views that are widely held by most Gods and Earths. The site is much less dogmatic than that of many 5%er websites. I have, also, yet to see the site crash like the site that was previously first.--CHAY IBREE ALLAH (talk) 00:41, 13 November 2008 (UTC)The NOGE has its owns sites as i have already listed above namely the National Office of Cultural Affairs (NOCA) facebook site, allah youth center in mecca site on facebook, universal builders.ning.com and allah's nation.net. These are actual NOGE sites and if objectivly truthful information is what you are looking for our noca site is the only site in which the NOGE has taken its case to the supreme court of the united states of America. We have won our legitmacy in the courts of this country and are self defined. Wikipedia has been misled by poison pen writers whose most biased statements about the NOGE they claim is illegitmate is the information used by wikipedia to define the NOGE. this does the NOGE and wikipedia a great disservice````BORN KING ALLAH EDITOR OF THE FIVE PERCENTER NEWSPAPER AND CHIEF ADMINISTRATOR OF THE NATIONAL OFFICE OF CULTURAL AFFAIRS (NOCA)
- As addressed above, the Nation of Gods and Earths has never taken a position of agreeing wholeheartedly with Allah Team claims.Kuahmel (talk) 08:02, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
So in other words the Nation of Gods and Earths are monopolizing what constitutes a Five Percenter, as well as a God and an Earth? So the NGE is a dogmatic religion like any other religion. The Allah Team are the ONLY ONES who defend Father, Allah on a scholarly and historical level yet the link to their page is deleted? Why then have Method Man, RZA, and a host of other Five Percenters bought their historical books about Father, Allah? --HaelBenQodesh (talk) 18:24, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
- What exactly is your interest here? This article is not about the Allah Team. If one doesn't exist already, start one yourself. Also, Wikipedia is not a general discussion soapbox, but a place to summarize reliable, accurate information about a topic.Kuahmel (talk) 21:04, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
Why is the first link listed as an official website? There is no official website as there is no official leader. The last and first leader was Father, ALLAH so unless their group changed and they got a new leader this makes no sense. --HaelBenQodesh (talk) 18:34, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
I deleted an entry to the article and added a needed citation
I took the opinion (wherein it states Clarence 13 X calling himself God is the same as Father, Divine) off because George Baker (Father, Divine) did not declare himself to be God, his followers did. Clarence 13 X did it himself. This is a great difference, otherwise that would would need two citations to be a fact and I have yet to see such. I added a citation from a non-5%er based site to provide less of a one sided opinion and view, and in that sense it should not be taken off.--CHAY IBREE ALLAH (talk) 00:34, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
I also deleted an entry. I stated that it was not hard to believe that the NYC police may have been involved in the death of Clarence 13X since they have a history of killing unarmed black men. The statement is an opinion. Also, the information that discusses the accusations surrounded his killing should have a citation.39aka94 (talk) 14:02, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
Supreme Mathematics and Supreme Alphabet
Both the Math and Alphabet have many conflicting versions within the Nation, where some numbers and letters have different principles attached to them from other versions. Hence, to post exhaustive lists of any one version as the gospel source makes no sense. Besides, it's generally OR as there is no reliable source in existence, and in many cases people who post them don't even spell a lot of them correctly. This is why I scrubbed off both full listings in favor of examples. People reading this article can still get the point. Without protesting too much, I think this is the way both should stay.Kuahmel (talk) 03:35, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
- I will concede that I question your agenda in saying such things. (Personal axe to grind, maybe?) Maybe you're better served taking that up on a site where Gods and Earths congregate. For the record, they're official enough to have plenty of readily available material written on them.Kuahmel (talk) 16:35, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
The first time this phrase is used it hyperlinks to an article about Vikings; later in the article it seems to refer to people with dark skin, 'black' people. Which is it? --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 14:37, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
What happened to...?
I really think the section that explains the difference between the NGE and traditional Islam should be restored. Also, there should be some reference to the acceptance and membership white Five Percenters such as Barkim. Peace. (MuzikJunky 06:08, 4 October 2007 (UTC))
- It needs a source for the comparison or it is just original research which is not permitted. --SevenOfDiamonds 18:57, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
- The section had been there for the longest until just recently. It's a very relevant section since the NGE is most frequently compared to Muslims. And there are writings in print and electronically on the subject. If no one else gets to it first, I'll restore it and cite works soon enough.Kuahmel (talk) 23:24, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Intelligence
This comment is to the people, moderators, editors, creators, sponsors or what have you, who maintain the wikipedia site for information viewed by the world. In regards to the Nation of Gods and Earths definition that is presently being discussed by wikipedia and Born King, wikipedia should know that Born King is an active member of the Nation of Gods and Earths. He has been with this Nation for over 25 years and has fought for us in the courts in numerous trials to establish our legitimacy. I myself have been a part of this Nation for over 25 years as well and do agree that our definition needs to be right and exact for the people to see. Please review the matter being discussed as we come to the wikipedia site in all humbleness and concern to correct this matter.
As has been stated the present definition is not who and what we are about overall. Our story should be told by us because if you want to know about a person or what that person represents then you should go to the person and ask him; not others who are seeking to destroy who we are and what we represent. This is a matter that is very serious to us, which is why we take the time as well as the patience to explain what we mean to those who don't know us such as wikipedia. Everything that needs to be said has already been said basically. I think wikipedia needs to take an unbiased look at the talk and allow us to define ourselves so that there won't be any misunderstandings to anyone as to who and what we are. Thank you and Peace. Intell29 (talk) 04:38, 24 May 2011 (UTC)IntelligenceIntell29 (talk) 04:38, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, that's not how Wikipedia works. What's presented on these pages need to be based on outside articles, or books like Knowledge of Self, In The Name Of Allah, and others. A man proclaiming that he's part of the 5% and simply typing in his experiences is considered Original Research and not verifiable, even if it is true. If that same man were to type up his experiences and post them to a dedicated website that meets the criteria or they came up in a periodical like Time magazine, or even The Five Percenter or Word newspaper, that's verifiable, because anyone can go back and fact check that. The system here is made to prevent random people (including those who are NOT 5%) from just writing whatever all willy-nilly.Kuahmel (talk) 00:02, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
Peace. I understand your concern to keep jive per centers from posting negative and false information about us; my concern is the same as yours. While I can't go into detail in response to your statement, I did take it upon myself to edit the Nation of Gods and Earths section and change the "original -taught to mean people of any human ethnicity capable of original skill are from God" to "original meaning origin of all man and man kind the Blackman is God. In that same section there was also something about man becoming God "by using his inner esoteric powers"- I also edited that verse to read "through the Identification of the Supreme Mathematics and Supreme Alphabets as created by Allah himself" we will reach our highest potential which is God. Taking all mysticism out of that definition. Our teachings are simple and straight to the point, no extras needed. And also the section that said the "man from Asia" to the Blackman of Asia, which is in the Origin of Five Percent title section. Peace ~~Intelligence~~— Preceding unsigned comment added by Intell29 (talk • contribs) 11:36, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Only one online source?
There's only one online source...and it's mostly ads. Nice. Deathwish238 09:27, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- A book would probably be your best way to get a look at the situation of the Nation of Gods and Earths. I too was surprised by the lack of online sources. However I feel some of the books cited are very good in their examination. I will attempt to expand further depending on how recent events unfold. --SevenOfDiamonds 17:00, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- I think that the reason for lack of online information on the Nation of Gods and Earths, is that the publication of those lessons to the internet is said to be taboo. Reasons behind this is that some Gods believe that a person seeking lessons should have to put forth the effort to find a mentor to learn from. A boastful trait of among members of the Nation is to be able to trace his lineage in the nation back to the Father or one of the First 9 born, thereby validating the correctness of his teachings. Publishing the degrees online would spawn an unnecessary number of phonies giving out innacurate or disinformation due to ingenuine intrest in the group and enable people to cause harm or confusion to innocent people honestly seeking enlightenment. That is the reason why the truly best way to find out about the NGE, is to go to a gathering or, if physically possible, visit Allah's School in Mecca. --MaKebA 01:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
- There is not a lack of information about the 5% Nation online. The problem here is the article is named: "The Nation of Gods and Earths" when this is the name of an organization within the 5% Nation of Islam. There is no proof that Clarence 13 X Smith named the group this. This name came up long after he was murdered. The greatest sites to use as references are theblackgod.com and allahteam.com respectively. They have a host of articles on that site that one could use to make this less of an opinionated entry.--CHAY IBREE ALLAH (talk) 00:23, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
THE GREATEST SITES TO USE TO LEARN ABOUT THE NATION OF GODS AND EARTHS ARE THE NATIONAL OFFICE OF CULTURAL AFFAIRS (NOCA) UNIVERSAL BUILDERS.NING.COM, ALLAHSNATION.NET THE 5% NETWORK. THESE ARE ACTUAL NOGE SITES. The NOGE was founded by Almighty God ALLAH whose name was Clarence 13X briefly while he was in the mosque. He left the mosque knowing he was/is Allah and it was that realization that led to him founding the NOGE. The nation of Gods and Earths is NOT a gang, group, or organization and is most certainly not a subsidery of the NOI. These fallacies are slanderous and while it has taken the NOGE some time to see how other have been allowed to define us in print we are now ready to speak for ourselves. Wikipedia is supposeed to be objective and non biased but the views it shows the world about us comes from people who claim the NOGE are not who we even say we are. Can anyone be more biased then that?--Bornking7 (talk) 15:47, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
- With all due respect, "'The Nation of Gods and Earths'...is the name of an organization within the 5% Nation of Islam" is a position argued chiefly by the Allah Team, a group that openly disagrees with the NGE at just about every turn. The Allah Team cannot consider itself an innocently objective group, as most of the positions they take are matters of dispute. That aside, when it comes to the public at large, the terms "Nation Of Gods And Earths" and "5% Nation" refer to the same body of people.Kuahmel (talk) 08:02, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Kuahmel you seem to think you know the position of the Allah Team and you do not. It is pretty difficult to find positive brothers and sisters in the NGE so the Allah Team is a breath of fresh air and you total discredit them as being Gods and Earths. Do you think they have a negative agenda or something? I think they fully represent the Nation of Gods and Earths. If they do not then you may as well help to get the NGE leader like the churches and mosques of our day have! --HaelBenQodesh (talk) 18:29, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
- Your personal feelings about the NGE and the Allah Team are irrelevant here. The bottom line is Allah Team publications are not a reliable source for any information regarding the Nation of Gods and Earths, as they are about putting a political spin on the facts, similar to if one was reading the Weekly Standard or The Nation. The Allah Team only represent their own group's position and that's it.Kuahmel (talk) 20:51, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
I would like to know why you undid my recent edit of the NOGE lede page and other edits. you posted nothing on the talk page and i had to search around even find out who deleted my edits. The NOGE was not founded by clarence 13X. Clarence 13X has only a 31/2 year history. from the time Clarence entered the mosque and recieved the 13x to the day he was excommunicated out the mosque 3 1/2 years later and dropped the X. i dont know what wikipedia's policy is in regard to the name Allah. Mayor lindsey called him Allah and gave him a scholl that still exists at 2122 7th ave. Everyone called him Allah because that is his name and not a title for him or for the NOGe. The family name or surname for the NOGE is Allah. Wikipedia has simply been mis informed and and has bought into the false paradigm that Clarence 13x is somehow the true identity and Allah is a non existent entity or simply a nickname of sorts — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bornking7 (talk • contribs) 17:42, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
- The first sentence as given by you was "The Nation of Gods and Earths, sometimes referred to as NOGE, the Five-Percent Nation, or the Five Percenters is a God Centered Culture founded in 1964 in the Harlem section of the borough of Manhattan in New York City by Allah." According to WP:COMMON NAME we should use the most common version of a name. That's not always easy to be clear about, and a figure such as Clarence 13X is known by several names including his "real" name of Clarence Jowars Smith. However the article on him is called Clarence 13X, and that seems to be the most widely used form of the name. Calling him "Allah" would simply be confusing, and of course, to many readers it would be false or even blasphemous. You use the expression "God Centered Culture", which I have already added in the section below with an explanation. To include it in the opening sentence would simply confuse the reader, as the phrase means nothing to most people. However, it could be added with clarification in the lead section. Paul B (talk) 18:07, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
I started putting "citation needed" tags into certain places in the article where the lack of support is particularly glaring, but there are so many uncited statements in this article, it would take a while to tag each one. The article cannot keep a statement like the one about Mayor John Lindsay "giving" a school to NGE without offering support for the statement. The vagueness of the term "giving" aside, the article must include support for factual statements. If this particular statement is indeed true, there will be some sort of documentation: news article, MOU (Memorandum of Understanding)--a document often used by the NY Board of Ed, or even just a letter from the mayor. Let me remind the writers of these statements: without supporting their statements, anyone could write anything they want. Thus, unsupported statements should either have citations added to them or they should be removed from the article.
Moreover, I want to second the concern about the dearth of internet sources. This information has to be online somewhere. For example, Google's online books??Btaylor0000 (talk) 02:26, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
Citations for notable current and former members and associates of the 5%
I think per the neutrality dispute it would be good to get some citations for the artists mentioned as current and former Five Percenters and "Associates" of the NOGE. It would also be good to define what constitutes an "Associate" since this is nebulous- artists that ran with the same groups as other artists who actually were Five Percenters? Rappers who have occasionally referenced something to do with the NOGE but have otherwise never indicated membership? There's a lengthy list of artists who definitely were affiliated with the NOGE in some form, especially during the 90s, and given that they were generally fairly vocal about this (Rakim et. al.) it shouldn't be too hard to find citations for these artists. Everyone else is speculation unless they've confirmed it somewhere, and I don't think a single reference to the Supreme Alphabet in one verse on one track in an album from 1994 constitutes an "association". Those references belong in the "Influences and interactions" section, yes, as the influence of NOGE language and concept on 1980s/90s hip hop discourse is interesting, but they don't belong in a list of adherents. I've started by cross-referencing the artists' pages and have noted, for example, Busta Rhymes who no longer identifies as an adherent of the NOGE. Pending citations for other artists being found, names should be removed per Verifiability in the Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. 18.104.22.168 (talk) 10:56, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks to those who helped provide citations for the Notable and former members and associates of the Five Percent Nation section. I'm untagging this section for Citations Needed as there's only one outstanding. The language has also been cleared up, so I suggest a removal of the Neutrality tag as well since I don't feel that any of the information left violates any of Wiki's policies on Neutrality.22.214.171.124 (talk) 10:09, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
Apparently they have at least one notable white member, Michael Muhammad Knight. In addition, the article about Knight claims that the group has or had a white elder. It'd probably be worth mentioning as this article currently gives the impression that NOGE is solely an all-black group. LonelyBoy2012 (talk) 02:58, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
Time to archive this talk page
This talk page is now as long as it is years old. Quite unwieldy at this point. Can someone archive it as Archive 2 and start a new one?
On a side note, the constant editing to note all this silly Hip-Hop stuff and for Five Percenters to slather OR all over the place and call it "truth" got out of hand a long time ago. Kuahmel (talk) 06:16, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
it was quoting muhammed michael knight as stating "Whiteness is weak and wicked and inferior — basically just an errant child who needs to be corrected.” as coming from the Vice article reference in reference 25. I checked. it is not in the article. It is rather a quote taken from the New York Post article. 2602:301:77CA:1DF0:1545:BE6A:FDD7:D078 (talk) 03:18, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Supreme Mathematics corrections
Leaving the archiving to someone else; however, someone had put "anal beads" for number 7 and "butterfingers" for number 11. Found this link: http://www.blackapologetics.com/fivepercentfaq.html and corrected based on that, removing number 11 and setting "God" as 7. ProfMontgomery (talk) 03:00, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Comment by Bornking7
In regard to the introduction to the Nation of Gods and Earths I can only say that the NOGE does not want to be introduced to the world so unjustly. The fact of the matter is that the NOGE has been under literary attack by those who would seek to mis define the NOGE for thier own reasons. If the NOGE did not have someone aware that others were seeking to for reference and defining purposes submit unfounded statements about them when this was originally submitted to you before; we do now. The NOGE should not continue to be defamed or character assassinated via wikipedia because some editors submitted these defaming submissions in 2003. The NOGE is objective and like any other human being nation, people, religion, culture has the right to be self defined. At the moment wikipedia is denying us that right, in favor of a most hurtful and incorrect alternative. My submission was an actual definiton of who and what the NOGE is. The introduction you support is clearly not. As a young Nation 46 years old the NOGE has finnaly come to terms with the fact that if we dont speak for ourselves others will attempt to speak for us. I only sought to correct the incorrect statements that people globally will mistakenly accept as fact because wikipedia said so. this is fundamentally unfair to the NOGE and to wikipedia. Perhaps you did not know that the definition of the NOGE you currently support is actually slanderous before but you do now. i can prove everything i am saying to now because this is my job to objectivly and truthfully define the NOGE```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bornking7 (talk • contribs) 15:25, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- As you appear to be new here, you probably don't yet know that Wikipedia does not report what any of its editors claims is "the truth". If it did, I think you can imagine that it would be of very little use as an encyclopedia due to the continuous extreme changes that most of its articles would suffer: one man's "truth" is another man's lie.
- Wikipedia gets around this potential problem by only reporting what has already been written about any topic in reliable, published sources. That way each article gradually works towards a consensus version in which every fact that is likely to be disputed is cited to one of the reliable sources and any significant differences of opinion are reported from a neutral point of view.
- Since you admit to being involved with the organisation, you can probably see from the above that you should avoid editing the article itself - please read our conflict of interest guideline to better understand why.
- Having said all that, if you can find reliable sources that confirm your assertions, please discuss them on this page, and other editors with an interest in this topic will, no doubt, be happy to agree a consensus version with you that can go in the article. I must warn you though that this may take some time, depending on who's watching this page. If you raise some credible points and after, say, a week, no-one has replied, you might ask for some feedback at one of the WikiProjects such as WikiProject Religion.
- I hope this helps explain to you a little about how Wikipedia works. —SMALLJIM 23:14, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
I hear what your saying and in full disclosure i told you that i am the cultural representative of the NOGE as we are not an organization. I am published as i produce a monthly newspaper called the Five Percenter for national and international consumption. Wikipedias policy that if someone is part of a living breathing entity that is alive now and finds content on wikipedia that is diametrically opposed to the truth of that entity that representative is in conflict with making corrections. I ask you who else would know the difference between the truth and a lie if not a person who actually is the entity being discussed. Everyone in America has the right to the God of thier understanding. The NOGE is all about God,i wrote a clear defintion of who and what the NOGE is and was actually denied and refuted by you. But in the meantime wikipedia allows those who can refer to a book written by someone who disavows and denies that very same entity's existence, and then produces a slanderous view of that entity's history as acceptable? They have not presented a NPOV they have made sure to denigrate and assualt the very integrity of the NOGE's God centered culture as evidenced by your telling me that i am a part of the "organization". Again where is the objectivity sir. This policy is paramount to you telling the jewish people that if a german objectivly tells the story of the holocaust and has some books cited that he the jewish man is disqualified from correcting the lies because he is a jew. I am appalled and greatly disappointed. Then you send me to this room to what, agrue with the people who have submitted the slanderous material to you? I am really trying to understand where you are coming from. We are talking about the NOGE not as a past long gone entity but a Nation of people involved in defining ourselves to the world right now, and wikipedia is doing us a great disservice. You are attached to google and when you google the NOGE that disinformation you have posted as objective comes up and it is just wrong.````Born King Allah May 13 2011. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bornking7 (talk • contribs) 01:06, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- You continue to talk about "truth". I must re-emphasise that what you, or any other editor here, sees as being "the truth" is not a criterion for what goes in an article. As I said above, Wikipedia only summarises what has already been written about a topic in reliable published sources, such as those listed under "Notes" at the end of this article's page. There's an essay that explains the situation in a bit more depth at Wikipedia:Truth - can I suggest you read it? —SMALLJIM 09:55, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
Your exactly right i keep talking about the truth of the NOGE while you keep supporting the lies written about us because they were published in a book? So what is meant by veracity, reliable source?. As long as it is in a published book that can be cited thats good enough for wikipedia? As an encyclopedia i see that you really need to upgrade the standards by which you push, support and defend lies that are written in other books. Apparently your policy in the case of the NOGE is because the lies about us were posted by someone who wrote the same lies in another book these lies become wikipedias truth. Truth is always relevant sir thats why people go to encylopedias to discover facts and truth on any given subject. Secondly you talk about the NOGE as a "topic" as if we are not men, women and children who are affected by the lies you have posted about us on your site. You are aiding and abetting in bringing unwanted and uneeded negative energy and attention that is dangerous to the women and children of the NOGE. Words have power and for too long the NOGE has just minded our business not realizing that others were making us thier business. Distorting our name, history and truth for economic gain through book writing. The NOGE refuse to be slandered by literary poison pen writers who know this is your policy. So they beat us to wikipedia and the publishing world and published thier lies before we had the awarness to publish our own truth. Truth is the correction for lies, facts are synomous with truth all over the world. So if it took time for the NOGE to catch up and discover hows lies in print have been used to negativly frame us in the eyes of the civilized world so be it. What we are saying to you at wikipedia is that the NOGE has its own definition that i gave to you. It is not biased it is the definition of who and what we are. What you have posted and people read when they google the NOGE is defamatory, disrespectful, non factual and untrue. It is a very negativly biased use of NOGE history that is a travesty of justice. Again i appeal to you to reread my defintion and look at it without the bias of the disinformation you are fighting to keep online.```` Born KIng Allah May 16 2011--Bornking7 (talk) 16:10, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
- Hmm - I'm not going to be able to help you unless you understand and accept how this website works. After all, Wikipedia is just another website that encourages its users to contribute, as long as they're prepared to conform to its rules - like Facebook, YouTube, Flickr, etc. The fact that Wikipedia has become very popular is evidence that its rules are good ones that its readers find produce a useful result, and most of its contributors are happy to comply with.
- So if you have any dispute, it's not with me: I'm just explaining the rules, nor with Wikipedia: its clear rules (called policies and guidelines) have been discussed and agreed by many people over many years. Your dispute must be with the people who wrote the sources that have been used as reference material for the article.
- Now having said that, I'll repeat and expand on what I wrote on 13 May (above): if you can show that the article has misrepresented what any of the sources has said, or that there are other reliable sources that have not been used, or that there are statements in the article that have not been cited to reliable sources, or that any of the sources used don't meet our definition of "reliable", then please raise your concerns on this talk page so that other editors who are interested in the article can discuss them with you. That's an important way that Wikipedia works to improve its articles, and it happens all the time. —SMALLJIM 10:35, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
While i hear what your saying about other sites and rules wikipedia is unique in that it is used to define people, places, and things for the world via google. Actually define them. I think that means if wikipedia is talking about a people, a nation, or the way someone embraces the divine negatively and can then hide behind rules, then i respectfully request those rules as they pertain to a living breathing entity be changed. The fact is i googled the NOGE and had to read that defamatory misstatement. So i contributed to wikipedia in a partial non biased manner only to be refuted by you. As we have continued to go back and forth i have already done what you suggested, come to this talk page and say what needs to be said. Namely that the previous editors submissions to wikipedia are biased, have misrepresented the NOGE, and those editors are not reliable sources. I continue to say it here and everywhere else as well. Where is the response from those editors? I dont see any. They can not question the veracity of my statements or the defition of the NOGE that i offered you. They are disqualified from doing so and i challenge them to do so with this statement; "I challenge those editors to dispute the truthful information i have attempted to contribute to wikipedia." I really dont have time to be going back and forth with people whose motives clearly are to put women and children in the NOGE in danger with thier mistruths but.... because you said this is what i must do, its done sir. I have been honest and forthright in that i am not just an editor of the five percenter newspaper but that i actually go into courts to prove the veracity of my truth about who and what the NOGE is. When you know what something is you also know what it is not. The NOGE is not what wikipedia says we are. How long will you allow your editors used to misdefine us to be silent before you accept that i am the reliable source that meets your standards````--Bornking7 (talk) 22:21, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- I'm sorry that I don't seem to have been able to explain our rules clearly to you, but do I thank you for your restraint in not editing the article again whilst we were discussing the matter. As I indicated in my last posting—perhaps not clearly enough—you need to be specific in stating what you think is wrong with the article: mere assertions of bias and misrepresentation don't give enough information. A useful start might be to state exactly what you mean by "that defamatory misstatement", and provide a reliable source that backs up your argument.
- I hope someone else can help you better than I have been able to. By the way, please don't "challenge" people here - we work by cooperation and consensus, as I've already explained. —SMALLJIM 23:33, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- Bornking, the fact is that we have no idea who you are. We cannot know that you are who you claim to be, nor can we know whether you represent an official view or just your own opinions. It is possible to quote from an organisation's own literature to give its views, but they cannot be presented as the truth, just as the views of the organisation. If you say clearly here what you think should be added or altered, and why, then we can deal with the matter, if possible, but long posts hust making assertions about your claims to know the truth do not help us to move forward. Paul B (talk) 11:21, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
The fact of the matter is the NOGE publically began the battle to define itself in the supreme court of the US starting in 2003. The landmark decision found in the Marria Vs Broaddus case 2003 WL 21782633 (S.D.N.Y.)or NO 97 Civ.8297 nrb set the stage for the world to hear who we are from our own mouths. Prior to this case we had not entered the literary arena and basicaly were content to just live our own lives not caring what others were saying. We finnally realized how dangerous it is when you as an entity become the business of others who would attempt to misdefine you to the world. During this court hearing i became aware that it was my responsibility to publically correct the dangerous misstatements of those who made the attempts to defame the NOGE. The gang, group and organization code words are used in the department of corDections to describe the NOGE for nefarious purposes. Namely to criminalize an entire peoples (the NOGE) concept of the divine. During the trial prison officials claimed that the NOGE was a security threat group, a gang, and an unauthorized organization in violation of rule 105.12 of the NYSDOC. Because of that claim they asked the Honorable Judge Naomi Buchwald to sanction the punitive measures they had been inflicting on anyone who was NOGE. The NOGE at the time of the trial had been forbidden to read thier national newspaper The Five Percenter, study thier 120 degrees, wear thier universal flag or speak to another human being about thier concept of the divine. If they did they were immediatly taken to the hole, box or punitive section of the prison and isolated. In some cases people were held in isolation for years. If they would however rebuke the God of thier understanding they would be put back into general population. Mr Marria who i counseled and worked with his attorneys filed a 1983 class action law suit claiming violation of his first amendentment rights because of this theological discrimination. Using the Freedom of Expression clause of the US Constitution and RLUIPA (a federal statute written by Ted kennedy and Orin Hatch) won his case and the NOGE was legally defined to the world as a GOD CENTERED CULTURE. As the senior administrator for the National Office of Cultural Affairs (NOCA) I worked with lawyers and people all over the country and have continued to prove the legitmacy of The NOGE God Centered Culture ever since. I have never lost a case. In a 2011 victory that took place earlier this year in Michigan Dion Haradaway v James Haggerty, both US magistrate Judge Steven Whalen and District court Judge Avery Cohn ruled in favor of the NOGE over the false asserations of the state of MIchigan. In the online magazine called FIRST AMENDMENT CENTER the plight of the NOGE was compared to the plight of the Jews in Queen Isabellas Spain by Judge Whalen. The most ironic part of the case is when the states witness G Corbiscello attempted to use Wikipedia's definition of the NOGE as evidence that we are in his words a "gang". Dion Haradaway v James Haggerty Case No. 05-70362 will show you how the defamatory misstatments found in wikipedia negativly effect the NOGE. we won our case despite that attempted use by G Corbiscello however it still needs to be corrected--````--Bornking7 (talk) 00:28, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
- I have taken the liberty of removing your "ref" tags to make this readable. Not only were they improperly formatted, so that much of your text vanished from view, you inserted the footnote contents as though they were to be read as part of a sentence, not as a separate footnoted text, rendering your text unreadable. Paul B (talk) 12:19, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
- Your long statements do not help. We cannot accept the kind of edit that you made because it presents the opinions of the NOGE as if they were truth. This would be like having the article on the Koran stating as fact that it is the word of God, or the article on Jesus stating as fact that he is the Son of God and that anyone who disagrees will be damned eternally. Having said that, the views of the NOGE organisation can certainly be included in the article. What you need to do is say what the "defamatory misstatments" are exactly, and provide sources from the NOGE organisation putting their own views. Paul B (talk) 12:28, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
I must admit that i need more practice using your ref tags. However in my last post i supplied wikipedia with legal decisons pronouced by 3 different judges in two different states. Thier decisons are the epitome of unbiased and are most reliable sources of information in regard to the NOGE. I gave you the case law so that you can read the case of Marria v Broaddus, 2003 WL 21782633 S.D.N.Y.and the ruling of US magistrate Judge Steven Whalen and District Court Judge Avery Cohn in the Hardaway v Haggerty case in Michigan. These two judges ruled in Feb 2011 that the NOGE is a legitmate path to God and can not be called a security threat group (STG) gang, group, or organization as is the opinion pushed by the state (and wikipedia) in the case before them. These judges ordered the STG label be removed and that the NOGE recieve equal treatment under the law. That means the NOGE is now to be treated and respected equally as Judaism, Christianity and Orthodox Islam is. These are the words of the court. I referred you to the online magazine FIRST AMENDMENT CENTER so that you could post or read the judges in thier own words. They say the theological persecution the NOGE has suffered up to this year in this country has been compared to "the plight of the jews in Queen Isabellas spain". Again these are not my words they are Judge Steven Whalens words and you can find them not only in the case law i cited but also in the artciles i referred you to in the first amendment center online magazine. The NOGE is legally defined as a God Centered culture which is a defition of what we are. Judaism, Christainity, Orthodox Islam are relgious paths to God, the NOGE is not a religion, it is a God Centered Culture our path to God is naturally Cultural. I supplied you with the testimony of Ted Swedenburg a Cultural anthropogist who affirms that our path to God is definitily theologically legitimate. This is what the court heard and the state fought against. The state thought that because we refused to allow ourselves to be called a relgion, we would not be constitiutionally protected and they would win. But they were wrong which is why they lost. Constitutionally all people have the right to the God of thier understanding. and though you might not agree with how i understand God you cannot merely dismiss my understanding of God to be an "opinion " you have the right to reject. I gave you the Constitutional law as well the law called RLUIPA written by Ted Kennedy and Orin Hatch (US Senators)as a reference point because this is not my opinion this is the order of the court and the law of the land. The NOGE has defined itself before an impartial trier of facts in the Supreme Couts of the United States. The NOGE definition of who they are was supported and upheld in the most strenous veracity test conducted in a court of law. Therefore i cannot see how wikipedia having been supplied with verifiable information is still seeking to deny my definition. If when both sides of a discussion are presented ,there has to be an outcome and there was. Our attorneys supported our definition, the attorney general and its witnesses tried to call us a STG, a gang, group, unathorized organization but three different judges heard both sides and the NOGE won. How then can wikipedia still fight to keep an incorrect definition online. In every instance the judges ruled in favor of the NOGE. I just watched the Borgias a show which publically declares that the Pope of Romes family was the first crime family in the world, wikipedia is not going to define catholcism as a gang or criminal religion. When priests all over the country are convicted of pedophilia, wikipedia is not going to say Catholicism is a pedophile religion. But yet you still seem to have to keep asking me "what defamatory statements". Would you like jesus to be described by the same people who found him guilty enough to crucify him. Is that the reliable source that is objective because in the court of rome they drew up papers that objectivly found him guilty enough to be crucified? No christanity defines itself as do all peoples, religions, and cultures. Are the jews allowed to be defined by the palenstians? Of course not, but according to you the NOGE should be defined by anybody who wants to, except someone who has actually objectivly been involved in proving the correct definition. I showed and referred you to G Corbiscello who actually tried to use your wikipedia defition of the NOGE in the Michigan court of law against the NOGE. You can look up the case and read it for yourself and yet you still ask me what defamatory statements i am talking about? Judges who are clearly not subject to my "opinion" support my definition of the NOGE. I have done what you requested gave you other peoples words that support my objective definition of the NOGE. The world did not know who and what the NOGE is until we had to prove it in a court of law. that is not opinion sir, it is the reality of a people that wikipedia is fighting to marginalize. Now that last line is an example of my opinion the rest was fact````--Bornking7 (talk) 18:12, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
- I give up. You show no sign of having listened to what other editors are saying. The article never says that the NOGE is a "gang". There is a section in which it says that it has been labelled as such and has suffered discrimination because of this. This seems to be exactly what you are saying. I cannot understand why you object to it being called a "group, or organization". There's nothing derogatory in these terms. If it exists at all we have to call it something. I've no idea what an "STG label" is. If you want to include what Steven Whalens says then quote his words and link to the relevant article or cite it. As for Catholiciam, Wikipedia does indeed report on the cases of sex abuse and the articles on the Borgias discuss their unsavoury reputation. Paul B (talk) 19:19, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
Wow, i am amazed that you are really trying to support that statement. Try this on for size and tell me if you would like your your path to God defined by wikipedia in this way. Jesus angered the polictical and religious leaders of his time. The religion of christianity could be characterized as a fairy tale, a childish play on ghosts, some friendly and others spooky, has been linked to hundreds of murders around the world due to all the wars fought in its name, however christians believe it is the one true religion. So in this defintion i can "objectively" say what others think about christianity and because i said what christians really believe at the end of my statement, my statement is objective? Unbelievable! I checked wikipedias definition of Judaism its listed as the religion, philosophy, and way of life of the jewish people... Catholicism is a broad term for the body of the catholic faith its theologies and doctrines.....Chrisitianity is a monotheistic religion based on the life and teaching of Jesus.....Islam is the monotheistic religion articulated by the Quran..... The Nation of Islam is an African American religious movement founded in Detroit.... the Nation of Gods and Earths is an American organization supposedly founded...... these are wikipedias defition so i trust you will not need me to give you footnotes for your own information. To call the Nation of Gods and Earths an organization is disrespectful to the NOGE as we are a legitmate path to God defined as a God Centered Culture. So if you didn't know what to call us we are again; a God Centered Culture. Plainly no one elses religion or path to God has been called an organization and whether they did or didn't the NOGE has the right to speak for itself. Wikipedia has allowed the Nation of Islam to claim the Nation Of Gods and Earths is thier subsidiary. Which then leads me to see why wikipedia continues to fight to maintain the erroronous definition found in its pages. According to wikipedia the Nation Of Gods and Earths is the subsidary of the NOI and so we should be defined by them as evidenced by wikipedias continuing to deny the Nation of Gods and Earths the ability to define themselves. This to me is indefensible, biased and totally wrong. My whole point in sending the NOGE defintion to wikipedia is because not even wikipedia knew who and what the NOGE is. The information retrieved by the world who googles the NOGE needs to be corrected. No other editor not even the ones who submitted the information to wikipedia has said one word in dispute of what i have been saying.````--Bornking7 (talk) 18:20, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- I fail to understand how being called an 'organization' is "disrespectful". If you can show somewhere that "God centered culture" is the way the NOGE defines itself please find a reference to that effect. Otherwise you are just wasting words. Paul B (talk) 18:38, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
OK, it's time for me to step in here, as I've edited this page in some form for years. What Bornking7 and other editors needs to be clear on here is that one must have a reliable independent source to verify any edit that they make. Otherwise, it is considered original research (OR) and is POV (a biased point of view). Not a single article on Wikipedia is intended to be a puff piece or a hit job on the subject therein. The culture here is completely different from some blog or forum, or some person commenting on YouTube. Here, you have to cite facts (even if it's just the fact that someone else said it) from something published elsewhere for it to go in the article. Furthermore, I know a lot of the 5% crowd just don't like the idea, but honestly, the 5% is better served by more neutral, unbiased and completely independent material made available at large, as it legitimizes their existence and takes them away from being a fringe group, cult, or anything else that really would be unfavorable to them. So again, to anyone that wants to edit this article for any reason, if you wanna include or fix the information presented here, find an independent, readily available, printed source; cite it and you're golden.Kuahmel (talk) 03:35, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
In regard to independent, readily available, printed sources i have provided that for wikipedia. I have offered actual court testimony as well as made it clear that as the editior of the Five Percenter newspaper there are many articiles that define who the NOGE is. Now while Kuahmel may have edited this page for wikipedia i have been actually been the person defining the NOGE in courts all over the country. I cited the cases and gave you the judges names, are they not reliable sources? So kuahmel am i now golden? Read my previous edits and you will be able to independently go to different sites and my informatiom will be verified. We are talking about a living breathing people, not a thing or past event. All people have a right to tell the world how they embrace the Divine, in any forum. While books like the knowledge of self is accepted by the NOGE, other books are not. Plus those books dont claim to define who and what the Nation of Gods is they claim to give a history. That is the difference between a book and encyclopedia. Your not going to tell me that because i write a book that says kuahmel is said to be dealing with slow gasses, is unintelligent and can be considered a drug dealer kuahmel has suffered and really thinks he is great. This is a form of non biased reporting? Let me see you find the benefit in my statement. The NOGE will not be defined by anyone other then ourselves. We have men, women, and children to protect from the slanderous statements that are being shared on the world wide web through wikipedia. Now while my citing skills may be questioned, the veracity of my statements can still be verified by you all who seem to be experts on citing sources. I have supplied you with those sources. I just find it strange that a "non biased forum" is fighting so hard to keep a most biased description of the NOGE on thier pages. How did you verify that the NOGE is a subsidary of the NOI? Based on what do you allow that lie to stand? This is simply prepostorous and a travestry of justice. The NOGE is not the subsidary of anybody and that includes the NOI. We will from this point foward speak for ourselves and will not stop until wikipedia allows us to tell the world who we are.--Bornking7 (talk) 18:08, 2 June 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bornking7 (talk • contribs) 17:29, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
- You have not supplied sources you have referred to sources in rather difficult-to-follow ways in the midst of long paragraphs. What you need to do is name actual books or other sources, with page numbers etc and identify exactly what they say. If you are editor of a journal, you should be able to quote actual articles and give us the date of publication. It shouldn't be difficult to do that, and it wil be a lot more productive than these long protests and complaints. All this is explained on our policy pages. WP:V and WP:RS. I don't actually understand some of your complaints. For example, this page never says that NOGE is a "subsidary" of NOI (Nation of Islam). Paul B (talk) 18:22, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
Although i have already admitted to not being the expert on Wikipedias system of "references", you people are. However now we are resorting to semantics because to the best of my ability i did supply wikipedia with checkable reliable sources. I sent you to an online judges magazine to get the judges words out of thier own mouths. Anyway besides kuhamel no other editors have anything to say about the correct defintion of the Nation of Gods and Earth's i supplied. kuhamel only commented on how wikipedia works and besides that did not question the information i have shared. When i said that wikipedia claims the Nation of Gods and Earth's is a subsidary of the NOI. it does. Go to the NOI page and you will see it there. So again i ask you what source did you use to verify that false asseration. Wikipedia has allowed thier NOI page to claim the Nation of Gods and Earths is thier subsidary. Please erase that fallacy. I represent the Nation of Gods and Earths and clearly state that is false information! In the January edition of the FIVE PERCENTER NEWSPAPER volume 16.5 page 2 it says and i quote "I created a definition that would qualify us for constitutional protection"GOD CENTERED CULTURE". God first means that it is no longer a judicial arguement, centered means everything we do is about God. Culture is the practices and principals of a people at any given time. We have to define ourselves or be defined by others". In the April edition of the FIVE PERCENTER NEWSPAPER (FPN) Vol 16.8 pg 2 it says and i quote "Even in this dominantly religious world our God Centered Culture is a legitimate path to God that cannot be denied". " However there are states that dont agree with us and attempt to define us in ways that seeks to criminalize us. Like a bunch of religious school kids claiming their path to God is the only one there is,they seek to disqualify the Blackman being God. Instead they claim we are anything but Gods finest, they call us a gang, a security threat group, an organization, a sect and renegade Muslims. Name calling is juvenile, but their true purpose is an attempt to use justice as a tool to punish us for not following their religious concept of God. They want to invalidate us in the eyes of the watching world because they dont want the truth we teach to be accepted on any level." "Through The National Office Of Cultural Affairs (NOCA) i speak loud and clear about our reality as true and living Gods and Earths. We must have a professional office to defend the Nation against defamation and NOCA is that arm" April 2011 edition FPN vol 16.8 pg 9 "Our most recent example is in the state of Michigan with Divine Righteous Allah (Hon. Dion Haradaway) case. I have been reporting on this case for a couple of years now. I had the pleasure of working with the God and his attorney Mr. Eric Goldstein who had already won a lower court decision in our favor. We have been waiting for a final decision to come down from District Court Judge Avern Cohn. The decision was rendered on February 25,2011, we were granted victory through the use of summary judgement. We have won our Michigan case! The NOGE has been recognized as a legitimate path to God." November 2010 edition FPN Vol 16.3 page 3 " Our truth and righteousness is not the reality those in power want the people to listen to. In 2010 people outside our of our doors still question if we are who we say we are. We take pride in what we stand for and live out our God Centered Culture daily". The February 2011 edition of the FPN vol.16.6 page 2 " As a God Centered Culural people we have had a very particular struggle. We have had to really take a look at how we are percieved by others and make a decision if that matters or not. Our decision is that it does. At the end of the day we remain the artist with knowledge and wisdom drawing a clear picture of understanding who we are to the world that beholds us. We therefore eliminate the possibility that anyone inside or outside the NOGE can distort that picture. In particular our struggle in the world has always been centered around our definition of who and what is God. Uniquely we teach that the Blackman is God and the world has had a problem with that. Showing and proving who we are and who we are not is important and we know how to do that" These are but a few references i will supply today. Wikipedia be advised that i can supply you with legal documents and other verifable sources as well--Bornking7 (talk) 18:07, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
- I have no idea where this "online judge's magazine" is or who it was sent to. As for the "subsidiary" issue, you appear to be referring to the NOI template which has a section entitled "Subsidiaries and offshoots". In this context the NOGE is present as an offshoot, not as a subsidiary. The same applies to the American Society of Muslims and the New Black Panther Party. The point of this template is to help viewers find articles related to the main topic. Thank you for providing some sources from the Five Percenter. I admit that it is still rather difficult to follow exactly what you want to do with these quotations, but I will try to find a way to incorporate some of them. The exact nature of the legal struggle you refer to is still rather unclear to me. I assume it concerns a right to be construed as a religion in some way, but again, it would be helpful to know just what the legal status is that you have been seeking to assert. As for your statement that you believe "Blackman is God and the world has had a problem with that", of course you have a right to believe that and others also have a right to disbelieve it, and to express their rejection of the idea. Again, we should present all relevant points of view. Paul B (talk) 18:31, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
- ok, I found an Associated Press article on the court case. I've added what I can in relevant sections. It would be nice to know when this term "God Centered Culture" was first proposed and how it is being used. I copied the following quotation using the spelling and punctuation as you typed it here. If it was not as published, then it can be corrected: "God first means that it is no longer a judicial arguement, centered means everything we do is about God. Culture is the practices and principals of a people at any given time." Paul B (talk) 19:45, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
Subsidiaries Main article: The Nation of Gods and Earths The Nation of Gods and Earths is an offshoot of the Nation of Islam founded in 1964 in Harlem section of the borough of Manhattan in New York City by Clarence Smith. He was commonly known as Clarence 13X. Gods and Earths hold events known as Universal Parliaments in various cities—usually once a month—to build on their interpretation of the Supreme Mathematics, lessons, and to discuss business concerning the Nation. @paul I cut and pasted that directly from the wikipedia NOI page. Just scroll all the way down the page and you will find it as well. Thats point number one. I am suprised that even when i refer you to information located on your own site that you still cant find it. You continue to fight against me like i am the one thats wrong when the opposite is true. As evidenced here you are clearly wrong. Yes, there is a template where the NOI brazenly claim others are offshoots, but when it comes to the NOGE they explicitly claim we are thier subsidiary. So i ask you again with all you are putting me through; what did you put the person through who wrongfully claimed the NOGE is a subsidary of the NOI? You seem to have a vested interest in protecting the lies written about us as you are the only one fighting me. The First Amendment Online Center is the online magazine i referenced in some of my earliere edits. Here is a cut and paste from the actual site: No sign that Five Percenters pose prison risk Associated Press
Wire Report Saturday, September 12, 2009 DETROIT — Is the Nation of Gods and Earths/Five Percent a religion or something less than heavenly?
A federal magistrate in Detroit is recommending the Michigan prison system recognize the group as a religion and lift a ban on its literature among inmates.
An inmate, Dion Hardaway, said he lost work and school privileges and was designated a security threat until he renounced his membership in the group, an offshoot of the Nation of Islam that promotes black empowerment.
“This is the type of substantial burden that Queen Isabella would have understood in 1492,” U.S. Magistrate Judge R. Steven Whalen wrote, referring to the expulsion or forced conversion of Jews to Christianity in Spain.
Whalen says prison security is a “compelling state interest,” but he found no evidence that Nation of Gods advocates violence.
His Aug. 18 recommendation is on the docket of U.S. District Judge Avern Cohn. The Michigan Department of Corrections considers the group a gang and wants Cohn to reject the report.
“The beliefs of the NGE are philosophical rather than religious. NGE describes itself as a 'way of life,' not a religion,” Assistant Attorney General Kevin Himebaugh wrote.
To help its argument, the state turned to G.V. Corbiscello, an investigator with the Monmouth County, N.J., sheriff's office. He was involved in the prosecution of a rapist in Philadelphia who used coded language known by members of the Nation of Gods to try to escape from custody.
“It is this writer's professional appraisal that the Five Percent Nation is essentially a criminal street and prison gang,” Corbiscello said in a report.
But Whalen said Corbiscello addressed the issue from only one angle: law enforcement.
“History is replete with examples of religions that have followers who embrace both the sacred and the profane,” Whalen wrote.
Corrections Department spokesman Russ Marlan said he didn't know how many Michigan inmates identify themselves with the Nation of Gods.
A Web site, www.allahsnation.net, promotes spiritual awareness and self-improvement, among other themes — “not social disruptiveness,” Whalen said.
He acknowledges that Nation of Gods eschews the term “religion” but says the group is “religious in nature” and deserves the protection of federal law in Michigan prisons.
In South Carolina prisons, the group is considered a security threat and its literature is banned. After a lawsuit, New York state in 2004 set policies for Nation of Gods followers, allowing personal study but banning prisoners from sharing materials with any inmate who is not signed up as a “sincere adherent.” The above was taken directly from the Firstamendmentcenter.org site. In it Judge Steven Whalen compares our plight to that of the Jews in Queen Isabellas Spain in that we have been persecuted mainly because of erroronous definitions about us put out into the public square by people including wikipedia who do not know who we truly are. I see that you have refrenced my statement "The Blackman is God" you go on to say that i can believe that and others can disbelieve it. The point is that is "The Blackman is God" is the cornerstone of the NOGE's theology. It is what makes us truly unique as a God Centered Cultural Nation of people living in America. We know that 95% of America believes that God is a mysterious unseen being that no one will be able to see until they die. We dont have a problem with you all believing that. What we have a problem with is the theological discrimination we face because of your belief. The NOGE does not impose our reality of God in the flesh on any people but we have grown tired of other people trying to define how we see God in deragotory terms. Or even more dangerously in terms like black supremacist, gang, group organization sect, subsidary or whatever. They seek to criminalize or in the least marginalize our concept of God. What we are telling the world and wikipedia is that we speak for ourselves. Our God Centered Cultural path to God is as legitmate as your religious path to God. Furthermore we have been forced to go into court and prove it. This is why i cited court case's for you. Many people do not understand us but thats okay, we know and understand who we are. We also know how to define ourselves and i promise you we will not stop until we are allowed to do so correctly.--Bornking7 (talk) 19:35, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
- The very passage you quote clearly says "offshoot" and not "subsidiary", just as I stated. Thank you for the information about trhe court case. I found an article which gave me most of the relevant information. No-one here is seeking to impose their personal views about God on the NOGE. We just want to describe its views accurately. Paul B (talk) 19:40, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
paul please go to the NOI page not just the side template, scroll all the way down to almost the end of the posting. There are different titles. antisematism etc. there is actually all the way to end a title called SUBSIDARY under that title you will find what i have posted its on your site i am not making this up--Bornking7 (talk) 19:59, 7 June 2011 (UTC) The information on subsidaries is located on the NOI page right after "noted former menbers friends and associates." Do you see it now paul? i see the template on the side that says offshoots and subsidaries, i am not talking about that section. Scroll all the way down and you will see it. The only one listed as a subsidary is the Nation of Gods and Earths. There are a few lines written as shown posted in my previous edit from today. Furthermore when you click on Nation of Gods and Earths as it is written under subsidary it takes you to the biased defintion i am trying my best to correct.--Bornking7 (talk) 20:11, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, I see. You are referring to the main Nation of Islam page. That's a different article. The talk page for that one is the place to discuss its content. I changed the title. I doubt that anyone was trying to be biassed. People change content without spotting slight errors. The main intention of that section was to link the rwader to this article so that they can learn more about the topic. Paul B (talk) 20:17, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
Ok so now you see what i have been saying about the NOI page linking the Nation of Gods and Earths as a subsidary of them. Now while you have removed the very patronizng subsidary claim made on that page you have left the connection intact. The connection takes you directly to the incorrect most biased defintion of the Nation of Gods and Earths. For an example of bias if i was to say Judaism is supposdly the religion of the Jews. was my statement objective? So what does it mean when it says the NOGE was supposdly founded...? other parts just dont make sense. The NOGE angered religious and political leaders who viewed the group as little more then an offshot of the NOI. What proof did the editior offer you for that misstatement. or is the editor trying to link us with the NOI defintion on the NOI page template the NOGE is an offshoot or subsidary. What kind of game is being played on wikipedia? The noge is being misspoken aboutand treated as if only the NOI can speak for them. This person goes on to say that the NOGE can be characterized as a gang amongst other things. Really well i have proof otherwise, we CANNOT be characterized as a Gang. Furthermore that is clearly a defamatory statement. From that introduction to the NOGE on Wikipedia, a reader will draw a more negative then positive conclusion about the NOGE which i assert was that editors purpose. I for the life of me cannot see how you keep telling me that i am biased and the definition you have on wikipedia is accurate. It most certainly is not. We know what a literary attack looks like and didn't expect that wikipedia would allow its pages to be used to criminalize and marginalize a people who only seeks to love God from their own unique pespective free from persecution. by the way who is the editor who submitted that distorted version of the NOGE to wikipedia--Bornking7 (talk) 22:48, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
Questions for Bornking7: You say that" 'The Blackman is God' is the cornerstone of the NOGE's theology". Does this mean the whole black race (whatever that is) is God, or that each individual member of it is God? Is this similar to the thinking of the 'Christian Identity/Church of the Creator' movement (as it calls itself) saying that God is really another name for the white race, also called the Creator because that race supposedly creates everything? Also, why are only men called 'gods' while women are called 'earths'? Do they not share in the godlike staus of the 'Blackman'? I ask these questions because I did not get them answered in the article, and it would be improved by a clearer statement of the groups beliefs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 22:44, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
I was wondering about the 'Blackman is god' thing too, but it looks like no answer from this fellow, who is so anxious that correct info be circulated about his cult. But you stopped his semi-literate ranting, which is something, anyway. 188.8.131.52 (talk) 02:56, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
Awkward math/explanation in very first paragraph.
The very first paragraph explains the 5% etymology... but it's unclearly written. It says 10% know the truth, and that those people want to hide the truth from the rest... then it references another 5% that know the truth and want to share... however that makes a total of 15% of people that know the truth, meaning the first sentence is contradicted. But I can't really think of great way to word it, so... Ijmitchell (talk) 22:38, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
"What up, God"
Ijmitchell, Basically it works like this. 85% of the people are the blind who don't know the truth, and will eventually destroy themselves because of their ignorance. 10 percent are the people who know the truth, but deceive the masses (the 85%). This includes Christians and orthodox Muslims, and ...the white devil.
Of course, since Black people are collectively God, White people are collectively the Devil. It only makes sense. So basically, according to the 5%er, If you are of European descent, you are EVIL, no buts about it. Sorry my fair-skinned fellows. You ARE THE DEVIL. This belief is not unique to the 5%ers, though, it is carried on from the Nation of Islam. But its okay, they justify the generalization quite effectively.
You see, about 8,400 years ago, in order to put an end to disobedience, Allah allowed Yakub to graft/create the devil (white man). According to both the NOI and 5%ers, white people were CREATED BY AN EVIL 150 YR OLD SCIENTIST NAMED YAKUB . You really don't know how bad I deeply wish I was making this up. YES, THEY ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT. AN EVIL SCIENTIST CREATED THE EVIL RACE OF WHITE DEVILS IN A LAB SOMEWHERE.
The five percenter's goal (or to them, inevitable accomplishment) is to teach the 'truth' and save the 85% from destruction.
Now I give props where props are due:
5%ers are generally very very articulate, and usually have very well developed oral skills.
They're also usually very well mannered, except when they get around white people.
They usually respect women, despite the fact that they believe that women are utterly inferior to men.
They generally have a great deal of self worth and self respect. They ARE God, right?
But other than that my elite friends, YOUR RELIGION IS STUPID. Sorry for being juvenile. And I know some kid out there probably thinks my ideas are just as stupid, but I disagree, and I don't care. Aug 8, 2013
- Yakub didn't do his stuff in a lab somewhere. It was on the isle of Patmos. Paul B (talk) 13:27, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
This is all very interesting - could you source it and put it in the article? Is the inferiority of women why they are called 'earths' rather than 'gods'? Why was the work done on Patmos? It seems a coincidence that this project should have been carried out in the island where St. John said he got his revelation. This comes from the NOIsome people, I know, but if the 5%ers teach it too, it should be addressed here. 184.108.40.206 (talk) 03:17, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
The 120 Lessons
Kuahmel, the problem with sourcing the Five Percent Nation is that they are intentionally secretive about some of their policies, beliefs, and practices. There is no way of accurately writing a section in the article that will lay out the specifics of the whole black gods and white devils controversy because they will be very careful to avoid it, or may even delete the section. While it is true they associate with whites it is common practice and doctrine to consider them to be permanently at a lower status. This article does a very poor job at addressing this issue. No other group considered to be in the realm of religious discussion would get a pass from answering these questions. To maintain their image in a positive light, their views of white people, which are documented in the "120 Lessons" are intentionally left out. (View 120 Lessons at this website http://www.ciphertheory.net/supremewisdom.pdf). Make no mistake, the Five Percent nation does believe and teach that white people are the devil created by an evil scientist, or as they often refer to them as, "savages" who can be taught the "supreme wisdom", but will never be able to be a "GOD" because they are not black. This is their essential philosophy concerning this issue and is at the forefront of their ideology, doctrine, and inner discussions. To openly say or promote this ideology would be unwise of them as they would be publicly labeled as a hate group and it would be hard for them to impress their ideas onto new members. Again, writing an article on the Five Percent Nation is very difficult as certain aspects are secretive. Imagine if the KKK were to allow black into their group, treat them kindly, but still believe and adhere to their white supremacist ideology. Well, that's how the NGE operates. They truly believe they are supreme to whites, and no amount of semantics and article doctoring is going to change that. If you are a white member of the NGE you are basically considered as their wild pet who needs to be trained, but they will never consider you to be on their level of understanding. Similar to the human/dog relationship. Harsh words, but essentially true. Good luck to anyone trying to add or edit this article. You have your hands full.
- Not sure how long ago you wrote this, but hey, make no mistake, many 5% have an anti-white grudge, and likely came to the Nation liking the idea of sticking it to white people. Make no mistake also, many 5% hunger for Black supremacy or a religious ideology supremacy (as opposed to equality). Many 5% speak extremely to the effects you and I have laid out. As with Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc., the 5% also has a sizable cache of more pragmatic, equality-minded folks. While Wikipedia isn't a place to get into speculation, opinion, or any general discussion, the theology is ever-evolving, as all do. Anyways, I'm all for this article reflecting what's out there and verifiable. If one item doesn't please an ideologue 5%er while another doesn't please someone who thinks the 5% are the greatest threat to white people, that's their problem. Kuahmel (talk) 22:07, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
Please use reliable sources
Please read WP:RS. Just making assertions backed to NGE publications is not helpful nor is it even at times clear what you are saying. It's fine to say that the NGE calls itself a "God centered culture", but since that's a rather obscure phrase, we would need clarification of what it meant in NGE theology, and please don't write in ALLCAPS. It's not appropriate. Paul B (talk) 19:55, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
The Five-Percent Nation of Islam has been called a racist ideology. However, this is equal to calling Christianity racist because of the Catholic Church's relationship with Nazi Germany. Though many of its member have outwardly spoken out about their racist views, the religion itself is not racist ideology.
"Some[who?] have said the Five-Percent movement is a conflux of ideologies and practices embraced by rappers seeking popular appeal or "street credit" to sell albums to the audiences of hip hop and rap music. Rappers and black celebrities like Jay Z frequently reference Five-Percent teachings and symbols in lyrics describing the plight of persons in poverty who are forced to join gangs and sell drugs due to the subjugation by so called "white devils". Others[who?] have argued that the Five-Percent is simply a means of manipulating the masses not unlike other religions but more primitive given the recent origins as the Five-Percenters combine racist ideology with the positive message of self reliance achieved through cooperation among blacks to exclude white males for gaining positions of power in societies controlled by the "white devils" where the power structure of the United States and other nations is rooted in racism from slavery and discrimination dating to colonialism and imperialism."
This was written and it uses http://nation.foxnews.com/2014/04/06/ny-post-jay-z-blinging-it-black as its only source and though they have a quote there, from one racist self-proclaimed Five-Percenter, it can not be used as evidence for the religion itself being racist. You should not allow the only source being an online (racist?) newspaper with nothing more than a quote from some random guy who wrote two books. Please delete more of this type of nonsense on your website. 220.127.116.11 (talk) 13:46, 22 April 2014 (UTC)Noogieboogie
Okay, if the 5% are not racist, why do they say the Blackman is God? And endorse the notion that whites were created by a black scientist named Yakub? The article should reflect clearly what is official teaching of the group, with proper sources. That will avoid disputes like this. 18.104.22.168 (talk) 03:23, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
This article will be vandalized, trolled, and otherwise toyed with no matter what is accurately reflected. The oversimplified takeaway of "blacks good, whites bad!" dictates that this will happen as long as Wikipedia exists. Kuahmel (talk) 22:39, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
"this is equal to calling Christianity racist because of the Catholic Church's relationship with Nazi Germany." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_aspects_of_Nazism#Nazism_and_Christianity ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 21:41, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
I've only got other wiki articles to go by but.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakub_%28Nation_of_Islam%29 seems like it to me? not getting where the question is :P126.96.36.199 (talk) 21:41, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
How many followers?
In Popular Culture
It should be noted that he is an extreme and proud racist who truly believes white people are the devil. As he noted in his Oct 13, 2014 interview on Allah's School in Mecca's Youtube channel it's his favorite part of the 120 lessons. His extremist attitude is the entire basis of his rap career and the same type of people are his followers. Anger fuels their souls. They have no desire to be a truly educated person they just like sitting around blaming all their problems on white people. - Axe God — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 16:00, 17 September 2015 (UTC)