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|WikiProject Germany||(Rated C-class, Low-importance)|
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"Myth of the Tigre"
I put this paragraph in because I felt there needed to be something that tempered the perception that this is indeed a "well-designed" tank, or invulnerable. The bigger theme I was trying to approach here was something i pulled from the t-34 article in 2010-1--that the Germans are perceived to be great designers, creators, engineers etc. against the Soviets being socialist savages when the truth is that the germans were left scrambling when their supposedly less-advanced enemies presented them with truly well designed tank on the battlefield. I also held this prodeutch bias, until the wikipedia laid the real truth bare on this point.
I do see in the article where some of the things I bring up here are alluded to, but it would be nice to bring them all together in some fashion
This is not independent research--it is a synthesis of points made in other wikipedia articles, including sloped armor, glacis plate, t-34, panther, panzerfaust/bazooka etc over the last 4 years. The points that were repeated were an attempt to draw several of these sources together.
"The design of the Tiger tank pre-dated the battlefield appearance of the Soviet T-34 with its sloped armor, so, unlike the German Panther Tank, it did not take advantage of this development in the thick, frontal glacis plate or side armor. Because of the boxy rectangular profile of the upper front, sides and turret sides of the Tiger tank, a greater thickness and quality of armor were required to attain the same level of protection as a sloped design. This minimized the presence of shot traps in the Tiger (except in the design of the early turret of the Tiger II), because rounds would not be deflected off the sloped armor into vulnerable areas such as the turret edges or vision ports. One method for compensating for this was to avoid presenting a square or head-on right angle shot or the belly of the tank to the enemy, though this requires that the crew be well trained and act consistently to anticipate an impending attack. The perceived defensive supremacy of the Tiger was largely due to the inability of the Western Allies to rapidly up-gun their tanks and provide advanced ammunition types in quantity in the field, and the low effectiveness of man-portable anti-tank weapons all the way up until the end of the war. Soviet Armored doctrine compensated for its weakness early in the war by fielding types and tactics that utilized much larger caliber and more powerful cannon (up to 152mm vs. the Sherman Tanks 75mm and 76mm guns) that proved to have been more than a match for the Tiger's defenses." 184.108.40.206 (talk) 04:09, 23 January 2015
- Apparently, your supplement to the article offers neither contentual nor substantial improvement. As you partly acknowledge, that addendum is original research and implying a conclusion WP: SYNTH which is not in common consensus. If you want to create real value, leave some citations from verifiable and reputable publications. Appreciate the feedback from other colleagues. 220.127.116.11 (talk) 08:51, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
- Only just stumbled on this. In many ways Germany was technologically backward in WW2. No Penicillin, no Cavity magnetron, no Proximity fuze no effective Heavy bomber, poor Artillery and usage on the battlefield, compared to the Western Allies certainly by 1944, inferior radio equipment, no ASDIC and certainly not the Bomb. Not even an effective anti-louse powder. Hugely agree that German technical "superiority" has been often wildly overstated, especially since the advent of the internet. The net is crawling with fanbois with not the slightly concept of historical context, or indeed history at all. All that being said, your edit is unneeded. By your own admission, this is synthesis. See WP:SYNT. In addition WP cannot be used as a source as of itself. Just taking material from other articles is not sourcing new material. The article does not need this material in any event. A close reading reveals that it is full of criticism, with all of the "new" points you raise already mentioned, scattered throughout the relevant sections of the article. The Tiger was deeply flawed in many ways, and the article pulls no punches in criticising the design, based on the best sources out there. I am therefore removing the material due to it's redundancy. Regards Irondome (talk) 15:32, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for addressing the substance of my post. I am no scholar but I think many wikipedia articles lack critical color to allow the general layperson to understand the full context here as I have come to read it. I am not trying to interject original research so much as I am to synthesize what is already there. As you seem to imply, you do not disagree with me or the truthfulness of what I said, but rather that I have not met wikipedias standards for the inclusion of such information. However, there are many less monitored or mature articles where I can inflict my own approach on other docents. Have fun! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 04:08, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
Removal of a recently published R/S
- A perfectly valid recently published R/S has been replaced with a contemporary range report and an article from Yank magazine published in 1944. Also the usage of lone sentry is questionable here. These reports were written before all the facts were in. I intend to revert in the next 12-15 hrs if the IP does not respond here. I have left a message on their talk page explaining BRD. We are getting a lot of disruptive non communicative IPs affecting article stability at present, esp the lede. Irondome (talk) 15:55, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
- Re-added Encyclopedia of WW2 ref. The first ref was about the gun, and the yank ref was talking about German half tracks and German equipment in General. Both irrelevant to the substantive point of the overall design of the Tiger I, whose wording was clumsily altered. Irondome (talk) 16:26, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
- Bob Carruthers work are probably circular, as shown on the Panther article. Also, Bob is not an armor historian and he's work should be taken with caution. Should his quotes be removed too to avoid copyright violation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kheynom (talk • contribs) 14:12, 29 October 2015 (UTC)