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Talk:Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in January–June 2015/Archive 4

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Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4

Two articles are needed to cover the year

I asked some advice from User:NSH001 on his talk page here. There are two problems.

Nishidani (talk) 09:45, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I've already written above that current, not NPOV++, version of article has no right to exist in Wiki at all :), but
if you are talking about return to a name of "List of violent incidents...", all what's been said about nonsense connection between Violence & Demolition and what might be ~ suffered under the "Timeline of " title, will return as well. --Igorp_lj (talk) 15:08, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

On my talk page, referred to by Nishidani above, I suggested that any renames should go through the WP:RM process. I have modified this view, partly because of the imminent need to set up a new article for July–December. I am renaming this article to List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, January–June 2015, with the intention that its successor should be at List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, July–December 2015. I am renaming the predecessor articles, back to 2006, similarly.

The reasons are outlined in my reply to Nishidani on my talk page, but it is worth emphasising that, as this is a list article, it cannot be at anything other than a "List of ..." title; the rest of the new title is self-explanatory. And it also happens to be an accurate description of the list's content. Note that the moves of these articles were made without any discussion, so I don't see any great problem with my moving them back to something close to their original titles (a sort of slow BRD).

I note, for the record, that the predecessor articles are mostly in a very poor state, and that articles for 2009, 2010 and 2013 are missing.

--NSH001 (talk) 23:26, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Igorp. I notified the page of this discussion a week ago. No objections were made. Unlike the unilateral, undiscussed change made to the title earlier, this move is logical and consistent with the content. Editors have had a week to discuss the proposed change. Nishidani (talk) 08:26, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
@Nishidani: As I see you haven't replied to my "objection post" of 15:08, 23 June 2015, as well as NSH001 hasn't took it into account.
Now, after such "unilateral, undiscussed" renaming" I may only insist on removal from the "List of violent incidents..." all what relates to a Homes' Demolition, etc. --Igorp_lj (talk) 20:33, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

RfC - Is the lead appropriate or too long, non-NPOV and covers material unfit for this list?

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
There is no consensus in this discussion. Though expanding the lede was closer than anything else. AlbinoFerret 13:39, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

There have been back and forth over the lead wording and sources for months now and it is about time to ask the wider community to give it a look.

The lead as proposed by some editors is-

This is a list of individual incidents and statistical breakdowns of incidents of violence, including property damage and expropriation,[1][2][3][4][5][6] involving a violation of rights,[7] taking place between Israel and Palestinians in 2015 as part of the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian conflict, but exclusive of particular events that fall within the parameters of any full outbreak of war hostilities.
Housing demolitions are regarded by Israel as justified as a deterrent response to acts of terrorism or on the grounds that the houses in question in East Jerusalem, and the occupied West Bank were built without permits from the Israeli Military Authority governing the West Bank.[8] The practice is condemned as discriminatory,[9] a form of collective punishment, sometimes as a war crime in violation of international law, by the United Nations, many human rights organizations,[10] the United Nations,[11][12] and scholars such as Meron Benvenisti and Saree Makdisi.[13] Israel has clashed with the EU's funding and construction of buildings for Palestinian residents in Area C, and ordered the demolition of 400 units saying that under international law, such structures do require Israeli permits.[14]

References

  1. ^ 'Israeli settler violence in the West Bank,' OCHA November 2011.'Violence by Israeli settlers . . . includes physical assaults, harassment, takeover of and damage to private property, obstructed access to grazing and agricultural land, and attacks on livestock and agricultural land, among others.'
  2. ^ Malin Pahlmblad, 'Israeli settler violence in Palestine,' European Parliament Directorate-General for External Policies, December 2012, p.14:'Settler violence against Palestinians takes many forms, including physical violence, destruction or vandalism of property (such as burning or uprooting trees and arson attacks on mosques), killing and stealing animals, and bathing in water wells used by Palestinians for drinking.'
  3. ^ Brian Frederking, The United Nations and US Foreign Policy: Collective Security Since the Cold War, Routledge 2007 p.157:'Most definitions say that terrorism is an intentional act of violence against persons and/or property, and it is intended to intimidate a population or influence government policy. . The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has greatly complicated this dispute. While those on one side interpret Palestinian acts of violence (particularly those suicide bombers that kill Israeli civilians) as clear acts of terrorism, those on the other side interpret Palestinian resistance to Israeli occupation as a legitimate act of national struggle. Conversely, while one side interprets Israeli policies in the occupied territories as state terrorism, the other side considers Israel to be acting in self-defense. Each side wants a definition of terrorism that implicates only the other side.'
  4. ^ Report of the Human Rights Council: Twelfth Session (14 September - 2 October 2009) Thirteenth Session (1 - 26 March 2010) Fourteenth Session (31 May - 18 June 2010) Thirteenth Special Session (27 and 28 January 2010), United Nations Publications, 2010 p.97:'Expressing its Grave concern at '(a) the continuing Israeli settlement and related activities, in violation of international law, including . . the expropriation of land, the demolition of houses, the confiscation and destruction of property . . which change the physical character and demographic composition of the occupied territories, including east Jerusalem and the Syrian Golan, and constitute a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War,’
  5. ^ Meron Benvenisti, Haaretz 2002 cited Cheryl Rubenberg, The Palestinians: In Search of a Just Peace, Lynne Rienner Publishers, 2003 p.136:'The destruction of a home is a barbaric act, and taking such a course of action, no matter what the excuse, is an act of terror that comes under the category of a war crime. . It would be hard to overstate the symbolic value of a house to an individual for whom the culture of wandering and of becoming rooted to the land is so deeply ingrained in tradition, for an individual whose national mythos is based on the tragedy of being uprooted from a stolen homeland.'
  6. ^ 'Israel's Policy of Demolishing Palestinian Homes Must End: A Submission to the UN Human Rights Council by the Israeli Committee against House Demotion,' ICAHD March 2012:'Since 1967 Israel has demolished more than 28,000 Palestinian homes, businesses, livestock facilities and other structures vital to Palestinian life and livelihood in the Occupied Palestinian Territory. The motivation for demolishing these homes is purely political, and racially informed: to either drive the Palestinians out of the country altogether (the "quiet transfer") or to confine the four million residents of the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza to small, crowded, impoverished and disconnected enclaves . .Allocating land for military training is not confined to unpopulated areas but can occur in the heart of Palestinian residential communities. In the remaining 30% of the land, intended construction is conditional on complementarity with a plan endorsed by the Israeli Civil Administration, of which less than 1% satisfies this requirement. Thus Palestinians are faced with the choice of building irregularly or leaving their communities. This policy is violently enforced with the demolition of homes and other infrastructure such as schools and health clinics being a regular occurrence.'
  7. ^ 'As safe as houses? Israel's demolition of Palestinian homes,' Amnesty International, June 2010:'Palestinians living under Israeli occupation in East Jerusalem and the rest of the west bank face such tight restrictions on what they can build that their right to adequate housing is being violated. the Israeli authorities condemn as "illegal" homes and other structures built without the permits that they control and rarely allow to Palestinian residents, and then order their destruction. Demolition crews, accompanied by security officials, may arrive at any time, giving families little notice or opportunity to remove their possessions. Under Israeli military law applied to Palestinians in most of the west bank, evicted families are not rehoused or compensated. So, those evicted would face homelessness and destitution were it not for relatives, friends and charities. Palestinians in East Jerusalem fare little better under the Israeli civil authorities. .Violations of the right to adequate housing experienced by Palestinians in the oPt are both a symptom of the wider human rights violations to which Palestinians are subject and a barrier to their achievement of other human rights.. .As the occupying power, the actions of Israel in the oPt are also bound by the fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in time of War to which Israel is a signatory. Article 53 prohibits destruction of property that is not justified by military necessity.'
  8. ^ Anthony H. Cordesman, Arab-Israeli Military Forces in an Era of Asymmetric Wars,Center for Strategic and International Studies 2006 pp.71-72.
  9. ^ Mehran Kamrava, The Modern Middle East: A Political History since the First World War , University of California Press p.426 n.65:'Palestinian homes are often destroyed under the pretext of not having the proper building permits. The same requirement does not apply to homes of Jewish settlers, however. According to a statement by the Israeli Committee Against Home Demolitions, 'With three unusual exceptions, in the past 30 years NO Jewish house non the West Bank has ever been threatened with demolition. . Israeli settlers are citizens of Israel and are subject only to Israeli law. None of the planning guidelines, procedures for obtaining building permits from the civilian administration or house demolition penalties applies to them. The first 21 Jewish settlements on the West Bank were done so without plans or permits and, indeed, against the stated policies and wishes of the Israeli government.'
  10. ^ 'Human Rights Watch calls on Israel to stop demolition of terrorist homes,' Haaretz 22 November 2014.
  11. ^ 'Israel illegally demolishing Palestinian homes, UN says,' The Times of Israel 24 January 2015.
  12. ^ 'UN accuses Israel of illegally razing homes of 77 Palestinians,' Ma'an News Agency 24 January 2015.:'Demolitions that result in forced evictions and displacement run counter to international law and create unnecessary suffering and tension.'
  13. ^ Saree Makdisi, Palestine Inside Out: An Everyday Occupation, W. W. Norton & Company, 2010 p.18:'Property expropriation is based on an Israeli reading of the Ottoman law of 1858, which is used to declare that all lands not registered as private at the time of Israel’s conquest of the West Bank in the 1967 Six Day War are public lands. B'Tselem has remarked that, even were that interpretation correct, the lands declared state lands are ‘public property belonging to the lawful residents of the West Bank, and as occupying power Israel is required to administer them for the benefit of that public, rather than denying Palestinians access to those lands while allocating to them to exclusive Jewish use and settlement.'
  14. ^ 'PM orders demolition of EU-funded Palestinian ‘settlements’ in West Bank,' The Times of Israel 7 February 2015.

Other editors have argued the lead and quotes in sources are unnecessarily long, not NPOV, WP:UNDUE and covers Housing demolitions which should get a separate list.

Various discussions on the subject can be found above in talk page. 21:18, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

While there maybe a call for an article on Israeli demolition of Palestinian houses, such an article would need to be the entire practice of Israel doing so and not just for the year 2015. Regardless, the creation of such an article would create an exclusion of this information from here. NPOV and DUE weight polices do not require us to cover Israel's wort's. They actual require us to show those wort's.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 00:53, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
@Serialjoepsycho: It already exists: House demolition in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. --Igorp_lj (talk) 22:51, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
That is not a list, which this is. This article deals with incidents illustrative of conflict between Israel and Palestine. The practice of demolishing people's homes in an occupied territory is regarded, see the sources, as a violation of international law. It is self-evidently relevant, unless of course you prefer to think that razing 25,000 homes in 50 years on foreign soil, while denying permits for building isn't noteworthy as an integral factor in the conflict.Nishidani (talk) 15:39, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
See WP:SPLIT. The size of this article warrants does warrant a size split. At thin point nothing else should be added to the list. However the split that is being called for looks more like WP:POVFORK. Instead I'd propose a size split. Breaking off the months of Jan-March would result in an article of about 90 KB. The scope of the topic would justify the size. However this is still rather large. Splitting the months of Jan-Feb into their own article would result in an article of about 70 kb.
Some of the content could perhaps be summarized a little better before a size split. The Large paragraphs before the bullet points in each month section. -Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 16:39, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
It will probably need to be broken in two parts. We are near the half way year mark, and I've always thought a split Incidents...2015, Jan-May' and Incidents . .2015, June-December the probable solution. There are larger articles than this, or articles with far more footnotes, dealing with a smaller time frame.Nishidani (talk) 21:39, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
The WP:POVPUSH is done by putting both lists together to begin with which put House Demolition together with stabbing or uprooting trees while many people will argue those two have NOTHING to do with one another. Maybe we should include PA asking FIFA to expel Israel as belong in this list.
This list in the prior years didn't include those and obviously there is no concensus for their inclusion now. The fact Nishidani fights any editor who protest it don't justifies it.95.86.89.17 (talk) 19:01, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
Read the lead definition of the article:

This is a list of individual incidents and statistical breakdowns of incidents of violence, including property damage and expropriation, involving a violation of rights

This is what is listed. I've left out more than half of what I read, for WP:RS grounds. Both POVs are included, and the Palestinian POV considers all of the issues mentioned so far 'incidents of violence, property damage and expropriation, involving a violation of' their rights. Nishidani (talk) 21:39, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Timeline_of_the_Israeli–Palestinian_conflict,_2014 It's include in this list from prior years. I also notice that you're basically arguing that your WP:Local consensus carries over. That's really a bad argument and it ignores Consensus can change. I also notice that you fail to provide no substantive argument for your positions. I can't say what many people will argue because I'm solely myself and I speak solely for myself. -Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 00:23, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
There was no consensus for the inclusion to begin with. Just one editor who feels like he WP:OWN the article.95.86.89.17 (talk) 21:29, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
This argument is also lacking. First, consensus is not a vote. Second, RFC's are designed to get a consensus.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 03:03, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment, not being actively involved in editing in this subject matter, list of every single event IMHO appears to fall under WP:NOTNEWS. Perhaps summarizing paragraphs about certain categories is sufficient and might help with the WP:TOOLONG issue.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 05:09, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Keep housing demolitions out of lede The lede is meant to summarise the article. While housing demolitions come up a lot in the article, so do many other forms of conflict which arent given any mention in the lede. Either bring more stuff into the lede or take housing demolition out.Bosstopher (talk) 15:33, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
The lead defines what the article lists and summarizes its contents. As you note, house demolitions are registered in the body of the article. Can you identify 'many other forms of conflict' between Israel and Palestine which are not alluded to in the lead? Have I missed something? Nishidani (talk) 16:35, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
They make a great point. The lede is unbalanced as is. A simple solution would be to simply remove housing demolitions from the lead. Another solution would be to expand the lead.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 16:45, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment I do not think that the lead is at all long given the nature and length or the article. It is a timeline. It presents a list of events that may well be disjointed in all things bar chronology and a decent summary in the lead, I think, is called for. Page searches indicated the word usages of:
"house" 22 times, "demolished" 22times, "demolition" 22 times, "razed" 17 times,
"killed" 12 times, shot 128 times, "stabbed" 15 times, "throw" 59 times, "threw" 7 times, "wounded" 45 times, "injured" 105 times, "assulted" 23 times,
"tree" 57 times, "cut down" 5 times", "chop down" 5 times, "chopped down" 5 times,
"protest" 40 times,
These figures give no indication as to what actions were performed by which ratio by either side but I think that they give an indication of the range of some of the notable activities concerned. There can also be other actions not mentioned like the segregation of checkpoint queues between West Bank residents and people with Israeli, foreign or settler identifications or the building of a large grey wall to block a view that an old man had previously known from his house from childhood. I don't see the benefit of removing content from the lead unless it were to be moved to a connected and complimentary article. However the, I think, currently moderately short lead could well be expanded perhaps with current content summarised.
pinging: @Serialjoepsycho, Igorp lj, Nishidani, RightCowLeftCoast, and Bosstopher: GregKaye 12:01, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
I don't really see the page search summary you are discussing as being all to useful for anything really. But yes I'd agree that it would be better to expand the lead.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 14:13, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Reminder

Let's do not forget to add:

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Igorp lj (talk • contribs) 20:43, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

NPOV

(Please do not remove, it's reminder about such topics in Archive, where consensus hasn't been reached)

... --Igorp_lj (talk) 15:46, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

See also: Talk:List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, July–December 2015#NPOV tag restoring - 2 --Igorp_lj (talk) 01:34, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

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