Talk:Trust law

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Propose merger with Living Trust[edit]

Can I propose that we merge living trust into this article? Lawdroid (talk) 17:35, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Goodwill trust[edit]

The linked page says "This type of entity was first devised by Link Egglepple Starbureiy in 2010 to describe the creation of the United Under Economy trust. Before this, there was no mention of such a statute anywhere in literature or common law.". No evidence for a statute, this may have been created to use here? Dougweller (talk) 07:30, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Sources[edit]

For an article of this length, it has remarkably few referenced sources. I'm interested in reading more about particular topics, but don't know where this information came from. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.14.208.122 (talk) 19:27, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Scope and Context[edit]

May I suggest that this page needs a revamp because it conceives of a trust as something related to will and testaments and is situated in a particular paradigm of thought that does not represent what a trust really is. Unit trusts, for example, are widely used in funds management and can even be listed on stock exchanges. There are a number of other definitions of trust associated with the disambiguation page for the word that, in the scope of the broader meaning of the entity should probably be absorbed and explained within the context of a single page called for all Trusts. At the moment, the information on Wikipedia regarding the definition of this type of entity is incomplete. Pkearney (talk) 04:08, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't think a "unit trust" is a "trust", although I could be wrong. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 05:15, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
It's not clear what you mean here. Do you mean that everything with the word "trust" in its name should be included, or are you just saying that this page lacks information on commercial uses of trusts? Lawdroid (talk) 12:13, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure to whom you are speaking, but I don't think a "unit trust" is a "trust" as covered by "trust law". On the other hand, trusts are a more expansive concept than just "living trusts", "testamentary trusts", "spendthrift trusts", etc. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:15, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
A unit trust is actually a very simple kind of trust, with a few specific features. It exists because under UK tax law such a trust functions as what Americans would term a "pass-through entity". I don't know what you mean by "trusts are a more expansive concept than [list of types of trusts]". Not to be offensive, but it sounds like neither you nor Pkearney know very much about trust law, and your criticisms of this page remain vague (when there are plenty of concrete problems with it). Lawdroid (talk) 12:59, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Hello all. I think that just like there's the general law of contract and specific contracts (employment, insurance, consumer, sales, etc) there's a general trust law, and then specific trusts (pensions, unit trusts, family trusts, testamentary, etc) all of which should be included in a page like this. The distinctions between the general and the specific are essentially different implied terms and compulsory regulation, which is to suit the subject matter of the transaction and the relative positions of the parties. Wikidea 02:40, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Trusts, for the most part, have much less in the way of implied terms based on their specific usage - in England there is basically one set of implied terms, applicable to all trusts, unless specifically excluded, or excluded by necessary implication of the drafting of the settlment. Most of the named types of trusts are tags for common forms of trusts, describing their express terms. Lawdroid (talk) 12:59, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Possible Historical Origin[edit]

Hello. I tried to add a bit of history in terms of the concept of a trust back in September of this year and was immediately shut down ( see history of warnings on my page and history at this article ). I'd like to reintroduce the concept and its source to show that, perhaps, this is one of the earliest concepts of the idea of what we know today termed a "trust." Aside from what only faith can believe ( verse 5 ), please look at what is depicted and the outcome in the favor of the lady whose land and property was lost. Here it is;

3 At the end of the seven years she came back from the land of the Philistines and went to appeal to the king for her house and land. 4 The king was talking to Gehazi, the servant of the man of God, and had said, “Tell me about all the great things Elisha has done.” 5 Just as Gehazi was telling the king how Elisha had restored the dead to life, the woman whose son Elisha had brought back to life came to appeal to the king for her house and land.

Gehazi said, “This is the woman, my lord the king, and this is her son whom Elisha restored to life.” 6 The king asked the woman about it, and she told him.

Then he assigned an official to her case and said to him, “Give back everything that belonged to her, including all the income from her land from the day she left the country until now.”''Italic text

- 2 Kings 8: 1-6

We see she 'appealed' to the highest ranking bureaucrat ( the king ) and there was an eye witness to substantiate her appeal. One could read in the history of this wiki entry that I only wanted to include the specific language speaking to what can be conceptualized as a 'trust' when the king restores the woman's land / property and includes income derived while she was absent. Isn't this exactly what one does when one entrusts their property into a legal entity and assigns a trustee to oversee it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by HafizHanif (talkcontribs)

Dear HafizHanif: Whether this Bible text describes "exactly what one does when one entrusts their property into a legal entity and assigns a trustee to oversee it" or not, it appears that this is your own Original Research. The Bible itself does not say that this is part of the history of the concept of a trust, etc. Instead, you would need to find a previously published third party source that claims that the Biblical text you quoted is an early example of a description of a trust, etc. Otherwise, it seems to be your own prohibited Original Research. Famspear (talk) 19:41, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for responding Famspear. I understand the need and legitimacy of a third-party source. We can read that what I'm pointing out isn't an obvious reach to form what has been centuries later termed a "trust." I would like to note that finding something published to support Original Research is itself prohibitive. It defeats the use of logic and thinking in concluding what we can read and understand for ourselves. Would you agree the framework I am pointing out is consistent with the idea of today's trust?--HafizHanif (talk) 23:24, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Merger with Trusts and estates[edit]

Easier to maintain quality with less duplication. II | (t - c) 00:11, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

I would support this. Trusts and estates appears to exist only because these subjects are lumped together in US law schools. Lawdroid (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:28, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
Yes, trusts and estates is a US term which covers more than trusts law. Take out the "estates" and put it in the relevant page on property, or wills or whatever. But this page can't be renamed or moved, I'd think. Wikidea 11:03, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Plain English[edit]

I would appreciate help with making the introduction/lead more readable. Lawdroid had reverted my edits, saying that because this is a legal topic, "It is the place for legal jargon." Based on Wikipedia standards, I disagree... especially for the lead. As such, I have restored my clarified version.

If my rewriting of the lead has removed any key information appropriate for the lead, then I would appreciate other editors helping by adding that element in plain language.

Here are key references.

  • Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section: "The lead should be written in a clear, accessible style."
  • Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Legal: "Use plain language, appropriate for a lay audience. Consider Wikibooks if you want to write a textbook."
  • Jargon: "Jargon is 'the technical terminology or characteristic idiom of a special activity occupational or social group.'"
  • Wikipedia:Manual of Style: "Writing should be clear and concise. Plain English works best; avoid ambiguity, jargon, and vague or unnecessarily complex wording."
  • Wikipedia:Use plain English: "Wikipedia articles ought to be written in plain English. Jargon, buzzwords, tautologies and vague abstractions ought to be avoided to the greatest extent possible."
  • Wikipedia:Make technical articles understandable: "Articles in Wikipedia should be understandable to the widest possible audience. For most articles, this means understandable to a general audience.... If an article is written in a highly technical manner, but the material permits a more understandable explanation, then editors are strongly encouraged to rewrite it."

Wshallwshall (talk) 16:59, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

I am normally skeptical of well-intended simplifications of legal articles on Wikipedia, but after carefully reviewing the old and new versions, I feel that User:Wshallwshall's new lead for this article is much better. I concur in his/her revisions. --Coolcaesar (talk) 06:25, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
Agreed. II | (t - c) 09:05, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
I haven't been following this article closely, but I also agree. As currently re-written, the lead describes the basics of the topic in a straightforward and accurate way. Famspear (talk) 18:53, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Remuneration Trusts[edit]

This section reads in part: "Trusts for the benefit of directors and employees or companies or their families or dependents". Should it not instead be: "Trusts for the benefit of directors and employees OF companies or their families or dependents"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eponymous-Archon (talkcontribs) 23:29, 27 May 2015 (UTC)