Talk:Ulimaroa

Edit war

If editors are in disagreement about Maoris versus Maori versus Māori, how about following the established Wikipedia procedures of seeking consensus via a talk page discussion? For now, I have restored the version that existed before the edit warring started. Schwede66 00:42, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks @Schwede66. Note that Māori with a macron is standard on Wikipedia when referring to Māori people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81ori

Further, despite the argument that having a macron is not English, it is the spelling used by the Oxford English Dictionary: https://www.oed.com/dictionary/maori_n?tl=true

From the examples there, it can be seen that using a macron has been standard for the last 20 years, and (like sheep) it is no longer pluralised with an 's'. Thedugganaut (talk) 11:49, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

@Thedugganaut: I see that you are no longer content with adding macrons and removing S's, but have now also rewritten the article to make it seem like Cook spoke to multiple Maoris instead of one, as the source says. You have failed to remove the singular pronouns from the following sentences, however, so the end result is something of a dog's dinner. The reason you gave for this blundering edit was that "you can't have 'a Māori'". The OED entry for the word, which you just adduced, begs to differ. It also contains multiple instances of "Maoris", though there is a note (presumably added in 2023, when the entry was last updated) saying that this is "now nonstandard" in New Zealand English. Zacwill (talk) 17:19, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Apologies @Zacwill - I have undone my last edit, which was of two words. I see from the context that you were indeed talking about an individual in those sentences, so that one was my mistake. However, this should mean "a Māori" should be changed to "a Māori person", and "The Māori was" should be "The Māori person was". I see you live in Scotland, and not New Zealand, and so you may not appreciate how jarring the use of Maori and Maoris was in this article. For example, stating "A Māori" without "person" can be perceived as being dehumanising - it is objectifying a person, which in a country that has been colonised by Europeans reads as if the writer considers Māori to be less than human. I appreciate this may be a bit nuanced from an outsider's perspective.

I note from the article history that (unfortunately, anonymous) users on 28 November 2023 and 17 January 2024 also tried adding macrons on this article, and to reduce the ambiguity and unintended meanings introduced by how Maori/Maoris were used, but you reverted those revisions. Please note that these revisions, not by me, will also have been made to genuinely improve the article, not to vandalise it. Yes, as you note, the use of "Maoris" is definitely now "nonstandard" in New Zealand, and as I stated previously, where you do hear "Maoris" now it is most commonly used as a pejorative term, from individuals who clearly look down on Māori. (I appreciate this probably isn't your intention, or that you are wanting to cause offence).

I hope you appreciate I am trying to improve the article (and apologies again on the last edit, where I did make a bit of a 'dogs dinner' of that sentence!). Have a great day, Thedugganaut (talk) 22:06, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't doubt that you think you're improving the article, but whether you are is another question. The suggestion, for instance, that "Māori" is fine when used for multiple people but "dehumanising" when used for one person is insulting to all of our intelligences. What other words does this apply to? Is "a Scot" dehumanising? Is "a New Zealander" dehumanising? It's silly enough to claim that the letter S can make a neutral word into a slur, but this is another level of PC ridiculousness. Zacwill (talk) 02:31, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Well, using Māori rather than 'Maori' and 'Maoris' is already a huge improvement. Your examples aren't equivalent. In your examples you don't say "he is Scot" and "they are Scot", but "he is a Scot" and "they are Scottish". Māori is a singular and plural, and so you do need more care in how it is used. It is correct to say "he is Māori" (or "he is a Māori person/individual", but not "he is a Māori") and "they are Māori". I don't make the rules. The article certainly needs some improvement as the current usages still lead to ambiguity through non-standard usages. Thedugganaut (talk) 21:48, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Let's go over this slowly. "Scot" is a noun. "Scottish" is an an adjective. You can have one Scot or many Scots; all of them are Scottish. "Māori" is both a noun and an adjective. You can have one Māori or many Māori(s); all of them are Māori. Zacwill (talk) 08:25, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Good work. Keep going over it slowly! You are getting there! Still no 's' on Māori, and really best not to phrase it as "one Māori", but otherwise you are doing great! Thedugganaut (talk) 10:20, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Oh, that was all for your benefit. Zacwill (talk) 10:26, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

For the benefit of editors from outside of New Zealand, let me confirm that adding an "s" to Māori indeed turns the word into a slur. I don't have an opinion whether that is PC ridiculousness or not; just saying that Thedugganaut is not making that up. Schwede66 01:31, 4 July 2024 (UTC)