Talk:Vulcan (Star Trek)/Archive 1

A half-Vulcan representative of all Vulcans?

Uhh, Spock is half-vulcan. (Did you guys know that 4 out of 3 people have problems with fractions?)

I'm not sure if this is what the anonymous contributor is getting at, but I don't think a picture of half-Human Spock should represent his whole race. A more appropriate picture should depict one or more full-blooded Vulcans, preferably in traditional Vulcan clothing.--StAkAr Karnak 14:11, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The intent of the picture is to depict the most famous Vulcan, not necessarily a depiction of his race, so I have no problem with it. Similarly I'd support using a picture of Worf instead of the one of Martok currently used on the Klingon article because Worf is the better known example. All this said, this article is long enough that I think it could use a few more illustrations. 23skidoo 14:32, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Should accuracy be sacrificed for popularity?

Since Spock is half-Human, should his picture be on the top of the Human article? How about B'Elanna Torres? Deanna Troi? Daniels? They do not properly represnt Humans any more than Spock does Vulcans.

Sarek wouldn't approve of Spock's face up there.--StAkAr Karnak 14:43, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Sarek is welcome to post a comment on this issue. The fact is, if you say "Vulcan" the average person will immediately think of Spock. Not Sarek, not T'Pol, not Surak. So therefore Spock's image represents the popular conception of what a Vulcan is. Accuracy has nothing to do with it. This is an article about an entertainment program, not a scientific principle. 23skidoo 17:17, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It is a vanity. I do not approve. Sarek Trekphiler 14:34, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

A work of reference has little value if it sacrifices accuracy for what the average person thinks.

If someone wants to know about Spock, they can see his page and his picture there.--StAkAr Karnak 17:30, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't see what the big deal is. Since this only seems to be a debate among two people with opposing viewpoints, I suggest posting this issue to the Talk Page at Star Trek or possibly request a peer review from an admin since there is clearly no clear consensus on this matter at present. BTW the edit note "Spock ain't no Vulcan" can be seen as somewhat offensive to people who are of mixed ancestry who have chosen to follow one path or the other. There is overwhelming canonical evidence that for much of his life Spock considered himself Vulcan first; the human side of things really didn't enter into it until the movies. 23skidoo 23:22, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think that the issue is more appropriately discussed here than @ the broader Trek talk. A peer review by an admin sounds great, although I am not familliar with how to start such a process.

It was not my intention to offend with the edit note; I have mixed ancestry, but define my ethnicity by my nationality rather than by that of my ancestors. The point of that note and this discussion is that it is inaccurate to consider someone of mixed ancestry as representative of his ancestors as a whole. All the more relevant is that a work of reference should not be content with a popular example over an accurate one.--StAkAr Karnak 00:01, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough. I just think we should get a few more viewpoints before making any major change. Maybe a "request for comment" on the Trek talk page, with a link to this page, is the way to go. In terms of peer review, I'm not sure if that's the proper protocol either as that tends to be used for contentious articles or ones where people want a criticial eye cast over the whole thing. But I think there is some process for helping resolve disputes where a deadlock exists. I don't know if that really applies here though - a disagreement is hardly a dispute and it's not as if we're having a revert war or anything. BTW thanks for adding the headers to the other sections; this page was getting a bit cluttered. 23skidoo 15:00, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I suppose I'll post a pointer at Trek talk then.

People are going to start thinking I have Tellarite blood...

--StAkAr Karnak 16:39, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"Should accuracy be sacrificed for popularity?"

Though I don't agree with it, WP makes it fairly clear in the naming convention to go with popularity over accuracy. So United States over United States of America. Etc.

I think Spock should be the spot light since I'd all but guarantee that to most people "Vulcan -> Spock" and "Spock -> Vulcan". I certainly won't object to a picture of a Vulcan in traditional clothing. But, Spock will remain the most famous Vulcan for the forseeable future and I see no problem with putting a pic of him first. Cburnett 19:17, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure what I'm doing, this is my first time posting here - for what it's worth I don't have a problem at all admitting Spock as the representative for all Vulcans - he's a very important Vulcan - what I would take issue with is his Starfleet uniform. Why not compromise by including a photo of him in Vulcan attire? I've done a quick search to see if I can find a suitable photo online, and haven't been successful, but I'm almost certain Nimoy was in an episode of NG wearing Vulcan ambassadorial robes. Am I mistaken about that? 85.206.49.87 19:07, 5 February 2006 (UTC) zygimantas

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Quote: A half-Vulcan representative of all Vulcans?

This is getting just a little to pretentious to be believable

Please sign your quotes rather than tossing in a random troll. Thanks. 23skidoo 21:59, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

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Green Lantern

What is this from?

"A vulcan colony became separated from the homeworld of Vulcan before the teachings of Surak. This colony used Vulcan designs to build a weapon which had never been constructed, as the firing of such a weapon would tear apart the planet it would need to be built into. The vulcans of that colony also captured Starfleet ships and upgraded their weapons systems with violent, powerful energy blast cannons."

The anonymous user who posted it also sites an obviously non-canon Green Lantern reference. Unless anyone can support the above comments, they should be removed. -- StAkAr Karnak 03:08, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The "Vulcan Green Lantern" was an in-joke by comic artist and Star Trek fan Dave Cockrum, who in one panel of one issue of the comic depicted in a panel background a (presumably) Vulcan Lantern giving Earth Green Lantern Hal Jordan the v-shaped Vulcan hand salute as a gathering of Lanterns was breaking up.

Cockrum did something similar in an Legion of Super Heroes story in which he drew Brainiac 5 holding a hand weapon he (Brainiac) called a "Solar Stunner" -- what Cockrum drew was a Klingon sonic disruptor pistol from the Original Series.

Davidkevin 17:08, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Request for info

I need to know

• when Vulcans discovered space travel/warp flight
• time of the Great Awakening
• size of proportion of Vulcan population that became Romulans
• name of Vulcan to make first contact with Zephram Cochrane

-- Timwi 14:07 14 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Interbreeding

Something has always puzzled me about the Star Trek vulcans. They can interbreed with humans, so biologically must be considered Homo sapiens, i.e. a human race. However they are found on an alien planet and while obviously very similar to humans, and obviously sharing a common evolution, they differ in important details, e.g., the "green blood". Have the producers of the series ever given any coherent explanation for this, and for how the two races found themselves on different planets in the first place? Goatherd 12:28, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Basically all humanoid species in Trek can interbreed. We've seen Klingon/Human, Vulcan/Human, Cardassian/Bajoran relationships for starters. This is explaned with technobabble to do with medical processes that are used for such breeding, but it hasn't really been adequately addressed. Morwen 12:37, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

It was discovered in the TNG episode "The Chase" (had to look that up) that long ago, many primordial worlds of the Federation that were beginning to evolve life were "seeded" by an ancient race of spacefarers, so that their dying race would live on in various forms around the galaxy. This is as good an explanation as any... -- Arteitle 14:48, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I'd expect its a mixture of the 'seeding' theory and some kind of complex medical techno-babble. Trek humanoid species are genetically similar anyway, and medical technology allows them to interbreed successfully.

Would that render species like Vulcan-"Homo Sapiens Vulcanis" and Klingon-"Homo Sapiens Klingonis"? Also, are these newer "hybrids" fertile or sterile? That is, would a X/Y hybrid be able to bear children, or not?

Classifying other humanoid races under "Homo Sapiens-" would be incredibly ethnocentric (or in this case, Terracentric) Willard 19:45, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The half Klingon, half human character K'Ehleyr was able to produce a 3/4 Klingon 1/4 human child with Mr. Worf, I would assume, therefore that, at least in human-Klingon hybrids, they are quite fertile. Charonn0 12-29-04 16:57 PST

I thought that common humans were classified as "Homo Sapiens Sapiens", and within this classification, I don't think the (theoretical) classification "Homo Sapiens Sapiens", "Homo Sapiens Vulcanis", "Homo Sapiens Klingonis" would be particularly terracentric, although it might be argued that a word like "Homo Sapiens Humanis" or something might be a better choice, I am not an expert of Latin...

I'm not an expert in Latin either, but "Homo" in this case refers to "Man" (as in mankind, or humans). Classifying alien beings as a subspecies of humans could well be considered terracentric (and if it were done, "Homo sapiens terrii" or something like that would be more consistent). In any case, the reason all (or at least most) humanoid species can interbreed is because it makes for intresting plotlines. Like the warp drive, "it just works." Larry660 11:41, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I have also recently noted that DNA tests have confirmed that Grizzly bears and Polar bears have interbred in the wild, producing fertile offspring, yet they remain separate species because of differences in range and morphology. Larry660 07:35, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

If the various humanoid species have a common root (vid. the Space Seed theory), then perhap an extra Latin prefix should be appended to the various designations? But I'm not sure I want to be known as Semen Homo Sapiens Sapiens ("semen" being Latin for "seed"). - Eyeresist 03:01, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Vegetarians or herbivores?

Would Vulcans be better described as herbivores rather than vegetarians? anthony (see warning)

I'd say vegetarians, since they can (and a few do) subsist on a diet that includes meat, but most choose not to. --Arteitle 01:35, Jul 21, 2004 (UTC)

Cats are called carnivores ,but they eat grass as well. Dudtz 1/3/05 6:33 PM EST

• Does it count if the cat just throws it up again? (heh) BryanEkers 06:46, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Katra non-canon speculation

I removed the following from the Katra section:

"(This "ark" may be, in fact, a "vrekatra," a device used for housing the katra until it can be placed in the Halls of the Ancients. Venerated elders often had their katras preserved in this fashion.)"

... on the basis that it does not appear to come from any canonical source. Please refer to Wikipedia:WikiProject Star Trek for the rules regarding canon vs. non-canon. If a novel or other non-canon source can be cited along with this speculation, then I think it's OK to include, but we shouldn't be stating fanon as canon. I'm trying to find out if this might be mentioned in the Vulcan arc on Enterprise, but I don't believe it is. If I'm wrong, apologies to 67.126.238.155. 23skidoo 05:40, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Katra leads to insanity. This isn't comic fanon, it was why McCoy was acting so erratically. Trekphiler 14:36, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Vulcan, Alberta

Is this particularly relevant to the article? Methinks no. - Charonn0 2/20/05 13:30 PST

I live about a half hour's drive from Vulcan, and they have really gone to town on promoting themselves in connection to Star Trek. They even host a Vulcan Days. It's worth noting for trivia value. 23skidoo 23:00, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Black Romulans?

Another contributor claims to have seen a Black Romulan on an episode of DS9. Can anybody confirm this? Are we sure that it was a Romulan and not a Vulcan? The only kind of Romulans I've ever seen are the typical "Eurasian" looking kind. Your thoughts and memories please. 25 February 2005

There was a black Romulan in "The Pegasus" (TNG). --Feitclub 15:59, Feb 25, 2005 (UTC)

The black Romulan who appeared on DS9 was named Ruwon and he was in the episode, "The Visionary". -- Old Right 18:56, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Duplicated links

There seems to be a minor tug-of-war over whether duplicate links should be allowed in a long article like this. My understanding of Wikipedia format is you link on first reference only. I was actually planning to do a clean-up of the links myself for this article. Does anyone know what the official policy is on this? 23skidoo 23:37, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

The rule of thumb I follow is link when it seems appropriate. As a reader, I don't want to *search* for a page link (which voids the "link only on the first reference, and that's it" policy). So I wouldn't link every instance of a word, buy maybe once every heading or couple of headings (no more than one link per viewable page I guess). It's more of a style than a policy from my understanding. Some will vehemently remove links and some liberally link and I stick to the middle somewhere. Cburnett 06:19, May 14, 2005 (UTC)

Sounds fair. If there's no set policy then it depends upon the article. A long one like this can probably get away with duplicated links, whereas an article of, say, two screens in length probably doesn't need 'em. 23skidoo 06:27, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Exactly. Cburnett 06:33, May 14, 2005 (UTC)

I linked a maximum of one Romulan per section when I re-inserted the links. I didn't link every Romulan. — Timwi 15:30, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Vulky?

In which episode was the term Vulky used? Just curious. I'm assuming Voyager since I never watched that show much and a hologram is mentioned in context. 23skidoo 16:00, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

According to Ex Astris Scientia, the episode was season three VOY: 'Real Life'. [1] Though from the quote given, it doesn't seem to refer to a Vulcan. It was apparently uttered by the Doctor's holofamily son, Jeffery. --Charonn0 6-13-05 12:38 PDT

Ahaha, I *just* finished watching that episode. :) Cburnett 20:17, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

This is actually one of the relative few middle-period Voyagers I remember watching. Didn't remember that line though. Good episode, nonetheless. 23skidoo 23:20, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Jeffery says it as he's running out of the family meeting "Kenneth" calls (after he makes them less perfect). Cburnett 01:59, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

Yahoo! group

I contend that the link to the "Vulcan Mentat" Yahoo Group doesn't belong, since it has little to do with the Vulcans of Star Trek, and isn't a source of further information such as belongs in an encyclopedia. That's why I'm removing it (again). -- Arteitle 22:59, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Mentat link

A link to a Yahoo Group called the Vulcan Mentat society keeps appearing and disappearing. It appears the last time it's inclusion was discussed was back in 2003, so I'm reopening the discussion before a revert war breaks out ;-) . Keep or delete? 23skidoo 22:46, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• • The above vote doesn't count unless it's signed. Please sign it with four ~ marks and explain why you feel this should be kept. 23skidoo 18:15, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Delete, or else we would have to add links to all sorts of web forums, mailing lists and other fan gatherings. — Timwi 28 June 2005 11:10 (UTC)
• DELETE - The link is listed in a bibliography, not a list of further reading. I seriously doubt that the wikiarticle has the Yahoo! Group as a source. As for putting it on a list of links, it doesn't seem to contribute anything significant, so I wouldn't keep it there either.--StAkAr Karnak 28 June 2005 18:26 (UTC)

• Delete, combine the apparent controversy of this link and that I think most articles have too many external links (this is what search engines are for). Cburnett June 29, 2005 02:31 (UTC)

• Just for the record, an article on the Mentat group is currently listed at Votes for deletion. I've also reverted the anon's latest attempt at adding a Bartlett's Quotes-style section for Surak (mostly fanon from what I can tell) and Spock. The Spock quotes might be OK for the character's article, but they make this article too long. 23skidoo 29 June 2005 04:53 (UTC)
  • wikiquote:Spock....eh? :) Cburnett June 29, 2005 05:43 (UTC)

• Delete, the Mentat page has been struggling with the same link. IMO, it's recruiting, since the Yahoo Group isn't about Vulcans (or Mentats) but about discussing the betterment of humankind through intellectual development. There's 4-6 people swapping links and articles on memory games and transhumanism, and the only connection is that they take Vulcans and Mentats as archetypes to emulate. JJ 29 June 2005 14:01 (UTC)