Talk:Wąsosz pogrom

B-class

Confirmed per MILHIST assessment. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 22:19, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Szymon Datner, statistics

Thanks to the power of the internet, and the devotion of people who digitize archives, now, we can read old documents previously limited to in-house research facilities. One of those precious documents from the past made available by the Central Jewish Library in Warsaw (Centralna Biblioteka Judaistyczna) is the paper by Szymon Datner titled Extermination of Jews in District Bialystok (Eksterminacja Żydów w Okręgu Białostockim) published in Biuletyn Żydowskiego Instytutu Historycznego, number 60, Warsaw 1966. — It is a fascinating resource.

In Table 4 on page 43 of his report (Tabela 4. Kreiskomisarat Grajewo), Datner provided data on the extermination of Jews in Wąsosz, as well as in Radziłów, among other district locations. According to his table: in 1939, there were 800 Jews in Wąsosz. In 1941: 1,200. – On 5 July 1941, the exacting number of 1,185 Jews had been murdered locally. However, there's only one source quoted by Datner in support of the above table data: Note 4. Rel. (relacja) nr 1846 by Menachem Finkelsztejn. The same deposition No. 1846 by Finkelsztejn ... widely discredited in the following decades as exaggerating the Jedwabne casualties by almost the factor of ten. Datner took his words at face value for both: Wąsosz, and Radziłów. He did not quote Finkelsztejn for the Jedwabne pogrom (Table 6 on page 46), but informed in Note 5 without commenting, that according to Finkelsztejn the number was 2,800.[1] Datner did not reveal his own source for the quoted 1,500 victims of the Jedwabne pogrom. But according to official investigation by the Institute of National Remembrance, the true number did not exceed 340 Jewish men and women. Poeticbent talk 21:20, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Completely rewritten by Itzewitz on May 8th

The article [2] has been completely rewritten on May 8 by 1 individual user; sourced information has been removed, the article is heavily POV now (eg. Polish killers etc.)[3]GizzyCatBella (talk) 10:19, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

The article now reflects what is written in mainstream sources. Previously - it was, as we say not in English, a complete salad - containing a screed sourced mainly from far-right newspapers (and even misrepresenting those sources and containing quite a bit of patently false OR) - aimed at discrediting the testimony of Menachem Finkielsztejn - who described events in a different town - Radziłów - and not events in Wąsosz. Menachem Finkielsztejn (as well as Chaya Finkielsztejn and a few other testimonies from Radziłów - for some odd reason our article treated Menachem as singular) - is relevant for Wąsosz mainly since he recounts killers from Wąsosz coming to Radziłów the next day but turned back by the locals. In any case - I stuck to high quality sources. I did add newspaper coverage mainly for the IPN investigation - adding the controversy over the planned exhumation and the closing of the case in 2016.Icewhiz (talk) 10:45, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

" testimony of Menachem Finkielsztejn" we should be wary of introducing highly controversial and criticized statements, I recall Yaffa Eliach who you were fond of as a witness and which investigation completely discredited as a source of reliable investigation. Your current edit seems highly POV and based on one single witness statement, in addition it deleted a whole lot of sources. I am happy to discuss changes but current version isn't really neutral.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 16:07, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

To the contrary, my edit introduced high quality academic sources - instead of irrelevant OR/low quality sources on the mostly off topic Finkielsztejn testimony which is mostly about Radziłów and not Wąsosz. We should reflect what high quality RS say about this incident.Icewhiz (talk) 17:55, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

I'll note that the "only surviving document" seems to be based (without a source) on a polemic response to a book by Gross more than a decade ago - Gross included this one testimony - which was then attacked. Research into Wąsosz (which I'll note was known in non-Polish sources prior to Gross and the IPN) has evolved since then - and my understanding is that there no contemporary claims this "is based on a single document" (from a different town, describing just how the killers from Wąsosz arrived there the day later), and that the site of the mass grave itself was located. I'll further note that the account in the Polish Wikipedia (surprisingly, perhaps, it is actually much more NPOV than enwiki on some (lesser edited on enwiki) topics) - closely matches the version I restored (redacting "Polish killers") - and that it ascribes the killing to the locals - the sourcing there appears more solid than what was here prior to my edit - however as there are English language source of a similar quality, we should per WP:NOENG, prefer the English sources as they are available.Icewhiz (talk) 15:39, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Wąsosz pogrom/Hermann Schaper/Deliberately spreading anti-Polish lies.

The article about the pogrom in Wąsosz is a pack of anti-Polish lies and may lead to a lawsuit. The pogrom in Wąsosz was carried out by The Einsatzgruppe, under the command of Hermann Schaper. "The entire Einsatzgruppe employed the same, systematic method of mass killing in many Polish villages and towns in the vicinity of Białystok. Schaper's murderous rampage south-east of East Prussia included Wizna (end of June), Wąsosz (5 July), Radziłów (7 July), Jedwabne (10 July), Łomża (early August), Tykocin (22–25 August), Rutki (4 September), Piątnica, Zambrów as well as other locations." "Hermann Schaper was charged in 1964 with personally directing the Einsatzkommando responsible for the mass killing of Jews in the city. Two witnesses from Israel – Chaja Finkelstein from Radziłów and Izchak Feler from Tykocin – recognized Hermann Schaper from photographs as the one responsible also for the pogrom in Radziłów on 7 July 1941, as well as the mass murders in Tykocin of 25 August 1941. The methods used by Schaper's death squad in these massacres were identical to those employed in Jedwabne (a few kilometers distance) only three days later." In the article about the Pogrom in Wąsosz, the innocent inhabitants of the village, who were also victims of the two Soviet and German occupiers, were blamed for the murder of the Jews, committed by German units. The fact that the article cannot be edited proves that the anti-Polish campaign is intentional, and that spreading these lies is part of anti-Polish policy. Annodomin (talk) 13:38, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

These sources do not meet sourcing standards

Elinruby (talk) 10:01, 2 January 2024 (UTC) Elinruby (talk) 10:01, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Looks fine. What standard are you referring to? VQuakr (talk) 18:26, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Holocaust in Poland has speacial sourcing requirements under an Arbcom decision a coule of years ago Elinruby (talk) 21:19, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

@Elinruby: per clarification on your talk page, we're talking about WP:APLRS, which does not say we can't use this source but requires consensus to restore non-academic sources. Do you have any practical concerns with the source for the information that it is being used to cite? The NBC source was being used to support two statements:

• In 1951, Marian Rydzewski was tried and acquitted for participating pogrom before a communist court.
• In 2014, Polish Jewish leaders were reportedly divided regarded exhumation of the bodies of the Jewish victims. Some, such as Poland's chief rabbai Michael Schudrich are opposed due to the dignity of the dead. Others, such as Piotr Kadicik the president of the Union of Jewish Religious Communities in Poland, support the exhumation.

As near as I can tell these are straightforward statements of high-level facts that can reasonably be supported by the NBC source. Thoughts? VQuakr (talk) 18:16, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

No responses in a couple of days; I posted to RSN, [4]. VQuakr (talk) 19:00, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Consensus at RSN was clear that this source is acceptable, for this context, per Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources#NBC News, [5]. VQuakr (talk) 17:37, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

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