Talk:Water Music

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It is requested that one or more musical audio files be uploaded to Wikimedia Commons and included in this article to improve its quality. Please see Wikipedia:Requested recordings for more on this request.

Acting Up?[edit]

User 71.140.25.47 has made an edit (12:24, 11 April 2006) that adds some rather incomprehensible data to me. The way the article used to read--

  1. Suite in F-major, HWV 348 
  2. Suite in D-major, HWV 349 
  3. Suite in G-major, HWV 350

--has now been changed to the following:

  1. Suite in F-major, HWV 348 Acts I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX X
  2. Suite in D-major, HWV 349 Acts I II III IV V
  3. Suite in G-major, HWV 350 Acts I II III IV

Frankly, I don't know of any score or source that refers to the movements of the "Water Music" as "acts." Unless someone can provide a reference, I'm inclined to revert to the previous version of these lines under the assumption that the so-called "information" added is grossly inaccurate. But I await comment based on the possibility that the person who added it can produce something to defend its presence in the article. -MollyTheCat 01:51, 16 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This also seems bogus[edit]

Here is another sentence that someone added:

"Music for the Royal Fireworks" is often considered to be part of "Water Music". However, this is not the case.

I would like to know by whom the Fireworks Music is so considered? As far as I can tell, no one with any knowledge of Handel's music is in any doubt that these are two separate works. Perhaps, however, someone who is not all that conversant with Handel and buys a CD that has both works (which are often paired by record labels) might be confused. But I don't think this kind of confusion rises to the level that would justify its mention in the article. Comments, anyone? -MollyTheCat 01:57, 16 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK, in the absence of comment, I have gone ahead and edited out the bogus "acts," and rewrote the other part referring to the Fireworks Music. I think the article sounds much more credible now. -MollyTheCat 00:11, 20 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Instrumentation[edit]

This article explains the orchestration adopted by Handel in a re-scored version. Although I have not researched this -- it would be advised that a mention should be added referring to the actual orchestra used for the premiere performance. As these kinds of music were not written for indoor performance, two oboes would not provide sufficient volume for an outdoor venue. Therefore, the actual numbers used would have exceeded this. However, I am not sure of figures -- I guess that around eight oboes were used etc. Anyone with time to research this are welcome.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.11.216.122 (talk • contribs) 13:30, June 4, 2006

Wow, that's an old comment. Surprised noone's said a think in almost two years...but anyway, for any who might care: I've never heard or read of Water Music's instrumentation requiring more than what's standard, though it's certainly true that Fireworks Music had a large compliment of winds. Remember that this was being preformed on a boat, and thus they couldn't have TOO many people there. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 22:44, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What kind of boat were they on? Was it a boat normally used for entertainment, or did it have mundane duties to perform (e.g., shipping)? Willi Gers07 (talk) 16:27, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Three Suites[edit]

The 1950s theory of there being three suites has been cast into serious doubt by the discovery of a manuscript copied before 1719. This was used as the basis of a 2007 revision of the Barenreiter (HHA) edition of the Water Music (See the preface here). It seems that the work was compiled not as three suites (or even two), but a single sequence lasting about an hour. Should the piece not be listed in its original order here? The 'Three Suites' theory could have its own section. What's the general verdict? Irishmaestro (talk) 17:51, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The article is reflective of modern performance, but it does describe the single-work concept. I've just edited the text to make that clearer. GFHandel. 20:32, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mention of a lack of Harpsichord in score[edit]

First paragraph of "Music and instrumentation" has been removed. Its original form is as follows:

All the instruments in the Baroque orchestra were included in the composition, except the harpsichord and timpani, which would have been inconvenient to bring onto the barge. The suites' music reflects this, with strings, for example, providing support usually afforded by the timpani.^[1]

While the book in question does refer to the Baroque orchestra concept, it also explains that this concept is attributed mostly to Handel and influenced by Corelli but in no way applicable to various Baroque orchestral compositions. More importantly, the notion that the harpsichord and timpani are lacking in the piece since it would have been problematic to bring them onto a barge originates from late 19th century biographies of Handel but is incorrect for various reasons:

The harpsichord was rarely noted as an obbligato instrument in the Baroque and when featured in orchestral works was noted as unusual (i.e. Bach's fifth Brandenburg)
The harpsichord was one of various options of instruments to realize the continuo. Handel was not prone to noting which instruments he prefers for continuo apart from several manuscripts for opera arias where he indicated "senza cembalo" or "cembalo solo", but never in published works.
The harpsichord is a family of instruments, most of which (the virginal, spinnet, clavichord) are small and portable and used often in outdoor performances.
The timpani are not lacking because of the setting of the piece but rather because they, like the harpsichord, only rarely received notation in obbligato form. Modern historical review of the Baroque (ref Grout, History of Western Music 7th ed onwards) agree that most or all Baroque pieces included an unwritten percussion part.

John Holly (talk) 14:33, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Hogwood, Christopher (2005). Handel: Water music and Music for the royal fireworks. Cambridge University Press. p. 14.

Garbled Daily Courant extract[edit]

The long citation from the Daily Courant in 1717 is badly garbled. For example, the barges certainly did not contain "Person of Quietly"; that should probably read "Persons of Quality." The passage is potentially misleading, must be baffling to many readers, and fails to establish its context. (E.g., what is the Daily Courant anyway?) Therefore I'm removing most of the passage and renaming the section "First performance". Maybe more of this text can be restored once someone gets access to a copy and transcribes it correctly. — ℜob C. alias ÀLAROB 16:15, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 15 December 2016[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. Timrollpickering 11:23, 31 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

– one of the most important Baroque period works. Telemann Water Music doesn't really come close, neither do some of the random other things with the name. (the DAB page has already been moved) Prisencolin (talk) 03:20, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Due to this discussion's existence and its purpose being to determine a primary topic, the current status quo is assumed to be a lack of a primary topic. For that reason, I reverted the move of the disambiguation page and bundled it in this discussion. Steel1943 (talk) 05:58, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this wholeheartedly, except that I think "Water Music" should redirect to the Handel composition. It is inconceivable that anything other than the vast majority of people who search for the words "Water Music" will be looking for anything other than Handel's version. Moreover, we will have many people who want to learn more about "Water Music" without knowing who composed it: they might have heard of it, perhaps briefly on the radio. These people should be taken directly to the page about Handel's composition and not to a page where they might misleadingly be given Telemann's inferior option, or a collection of random other pages, as a choice. Syek88 (talk) 20:07, 17 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support as proposed. The Handel work is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC in both page views (it receives 88.9% of all views[1]) and in long-term significance.--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:11, 22 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support as proposed. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:12, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Happy 300th Anniversary!![edit]

07/17/1717, 4 sevens, WOW, I actually listened to it on July 17, 2017. It is insane, because it has three "17"!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Man's Hat (talk • contribs) 02:02, 19 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Mention of lack of Harpsichord in score[edit]

Please see above conservation above under 'Mention of lack of Harpsichord in score.'

Although I do agree that there are many continuo instruments other than the harpischord, my source does state it was not possible to lug a 'harpsichord' around the barge for Handel's Water Music.

Per the textbook, 'The Enjoyment of of Music', "The suite's twenty-two numbers were performed without continuo instruments, since it was not possible to lug a harpsichord around the barge' (Forney, K., Dell'Antonio, A., & Machlis, J., 2015)."

^[1] Kfumelle (talk) 15:07, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not the most reliable of sources, and one prone to repeating unverified accounts. Still, if true, then there must have been no double basses, either, which are at least as difficult as a harpsichord (or a lute or a theorbo) to "lug around a barge".—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:43, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Forney, K., Dell'Antonio, A., & Machlis, J. (2015). The Enjoyment of Music(12th ed.).

The Complete Water Music[edit]

I have uploaded the entirety of Suites 2 and 3 (as performed by the United States Marine Band's chamber orchestra) to Commons. If "the goal" of that Template:Music requested tag is to have the complete Water Music in the article, I think we only need 9. Andante and 11. Hornpipe from Suite in F. Of course, there are reasons why you would not want to have so many audio files in an article (see WP:GALLERY), so I am taking this to the talk page first.


Audio	File name	"Absolute" numbering from source	Three suites numbering (as used in this article)
	File:Handel's Water Music - 11. Allegro - Chamber Orchestra - United States Marine Band.opus	11. Allegro	Suite No. 2 in D, HWV 349: I. Allegro
	File:Handel's Water Music - 12. Alla hornpipe - Chamber Orchestra - United States Marine Band.opus	12. Alla hornpipe	Suite No. 2 in D, HWV 349: II. Alla hornpipe
	File:Handel's Water Music - 13. Minuet - Chamber Orchestra - United States Marine Band.opus	13. Minuet	Suite No. 2 in D, HWV 349: V. Minuet
	File:Handel's Water Music - 14. Lentement - Chamber Orchestra - United States Marine Band.opus	14. Lentement	Suite No. 2 in D, HWV 349: III. Lentement
	File:Handel's Water Music - 15. Bourree - Chamber Orchestra - United States Marine Band.opus	15. Bourree	Suite No. 2 in D, HWV 349: IV. Bourree
	File:Handel's Water Music - 16. Sarabande - Chamber Orchestra - United States Marine Band.opus	16. Sarabande	Suite No. 3 in G, HWV 350: I. Sarabande
	File:Handel's Water Music - 17. & 18. Rigaudon - Chamber Orchestra - United States Marine Band.opus	17. & 18. Rigaudon	Suite No. 3 in G, HWV 350: II. Rigaudon
	File:Handel's Water Music - 19. & 20. Menuet - Chamber Orchestra - United States Marine Band.opus	19. & 20. Menuet	Suite No. 3 in G, HWV 350: III. Menuet
	File:Handel's Water Music - 21. & 22. Gigue - Chamber Orchestra - United States Marine Band.opus	21. & 22. Gigue	Suite No. 3 in G, HWV 350: IV. Gigue

Mysterymanblue 04:27, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Hogwood, Christopher (2005). Handel: Water music and Music for the royal fireworks. Cambridge University Press. p. 14.

[2] Forney, K., Dell'Antonio, A., & Machlis, J. (2015). The Enjoyment of Music(12th ed.).

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