Talk:We Are the Fallen

Band Name: The Fallen

What's the reason behind the article name being changed from "The Fallen" to "We Are the Fallen"? As this source on the article shows, as well as the band's MySpace page, the band's name is just "The Fallen". Presumably the "We Are" part is just to introduce themselves. Any chance someone could change the article name back to how it was? The Expeditioners ^-talk- 19:36, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Also, an interview with band members Carly Smithson and Ben Moody states the band's name as "The Fallen": Q and A's with Carly Smithson and new bandmate Ben Moody. The Expeditioners ^-talk- 19:50, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

If you look at their new MySpace video, Carly's first sentence in the introduction is "hey guys this is we are the fallen..." (hardly coherent/clear if they are just called "the fallen" in this instance) and their myspace page is titled "We are the fallen" in both its url and infobox so I don't think its just how they introduce themselves. AngelOfSadness talk 20:09, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

But on their MySpace page, in the section "About We Are The Fallen", it says: "American Idol powerhouse vocalist Carly Smithson is joining the original guys of Evanescence, who are relaunching as a hard-rock band called The Fallen." Also, in the interview with LA Times, Ben states that the band is called "The Fallen": "But the name The Fallen seemed to be the perfect fit...". The Expeditioners ^-talk- 20:56, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

The MySpace "About We Are The Fallen" part was copied/pasted word-for-wordfrom a usatoday article as it cites in its last line. Perhaps the band just shorten the name down to "the fallen" when discussing the band as it can be a mouthful to say if saying the name multiple times in an interview. But their myspace name,myspace url, myspace background (at the top), "about we are the fallen", their only uploaded track on myspace ("Bury me alive" by we are the fallen) and their website all seem to be indicating that "we are the fallen" is the band's name. I mean why would they bother writing "about we are the fallen" on myspace and saying their only uploaded track on myspace is "Bury me alive" by we are the fallen if that wasn't their name. If their name was "The Fallen" I would think all that would say "Bury me alive" by the fallen etc. AngelOfSadness talk 21:12, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Not necessarily. Anyone can choose what they want their MySpace name to be. Although, given that the band's logo says "We Are The Fallen" and Rolling Stone has said they're "We're Are The Fallen", I'll believe it ;).
The Expeditioners ^-talk- 21:19, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

We can see where the two band names and the confusion was coming from as, by the looks of it, their name was originally The Fallen but had to change it due to cease and desist order from an existing band with that name so they changed it to "We Are The Fallen". So at least that clears that up then...the bands name currently is definitely We Are The Fallen. AngelOfSadness talk 23:24, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Problem. CNN is reporting that the name does not come from Evanescence. [1] Might be some more info you all can use in the article. Sephiroth storm (talk) 12:21, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Added as an addition since it doesn't seem to conflict with the origin from Evanescence vs. the meaning it has to We Are the Fallen. ScottMHoward (talk) 18:43, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

It obviously does come from Evanescence's first album Fallen. I mean its pretty self-explanatory. No matter what they say. The sound. The way Carly is trying to dress like Amy (she never dressed like that before and on top of that her post idol solo album songs sound really different than WATF). It all does scream Evanescence. --Homezfoo (talk) 23:18, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Evanescence and Amy Lee in associated acts???

Amy Lee and Evanescence don't have any relation with We Are The Fallen. Some ex-members formed a new band, but they don't have any relation with their old band (Evanescence). They just want to use Evanescence as a reference for self promotion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.40.189.189 (talk) 22:39, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes they do. Ben Moody was mostly Evanescence. Not Amy, unlike most fans think so. Notice that Fallen was produced by him. He even admitted that there isn't a real Evanescence anymore. He is taking this band the direction he would've taken Evanescence if he had not left the band, like some people say. It seems to be the truth though. I agree with you though that they're using Evanescence as a platform to their success. Obviously, they got an "overwhelming response" because everyone wanted to know what happened to Amy Lee and who the heck is Carly Smithson since they haven't heard of Evanescence for a long while since they were on hiatus. However, they should be in associated acts because they have worked together. --Homezfoo (talk) 23:13, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Evanescence sound created by Ben Moody, not Amy Lee

Added very very very important information. Ben Moody says the Evanescence sound was created by him (and the others, but its obviously mostly him) and not Amy Lee. Uh oh. Trouble. RELIABLE SOURCE i added. Just so you know :) Discuss concerns here if you feel like it. :) --Homezfoo (talk) 03:32, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

The source does not exclude Amy Lee, but describes how Evanscence has gone in a different direction than the genre the original members created. ScottMHoward (talk) 21:48, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

"The Fallen" ' Cease and desist letter from another band with the same name

When they were first called The Fallen, the band received a cease and desist letter from another band with the same name. Although, according to lead singer Carly Smithson, she insists via Twitter that the band's name was always We Are the Fallen and that the media got it wrong.

How is this not an important history of the band? :) And Twitter is a reliable source if its from the official source, if ya'll can somehow see that. :) --Homezfoo (talk) 23:10, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

This was removed previously due to lack of creditable sources. When you re-added this information you did not include any reference to cite this information. We Are the Fallen has denounced this as being false (as you yourself just stated). It is not disputed that this would be interesting information about the origin of the band's name, but a verifiable source is needed to prove the accuracy of this statement before it can be included. ScottMHoward (talk) 01:30, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

So you want proof. Well, its on Carly's past tweets I'm pretty sure. I wouldn't make this up. I'm too busy to do it right now. She said it and i know it. But whatever I guess. If you wanna go grab it, go ahead. :) --Homezfoo (talk) 03:22, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

You quoted Carly's tweet pretty accurately from what I remember. "the band's name was always We Are the Fallen and that the media got it wrong." I'm not dismissing the fact that she said that, in fact I agreed she did. This source is actually disputing the very information you wish to include in this article. A member of We Are the Fallen made a statement to the effect that there has never been any cease and disist order and that "The Fallen" never existed. Yes, wikipedia requires PROOF that this is a false statement. If you can find reliable THIRD-PARTY sources (outside of social media--twitter) that can prove that there has been a legal order requiring them to change their name, by all means include it. Otherwise, leave rumors out of the content. ScottMHoward (talk) 03:38, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

omg yes. There is. The blogs were talking about it. I'm pretty sure a reliable source did as well. Rolling Stone called them "The Fallen" is that proof? --Homezfoo (talk) 04:04, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Again, the debate is "Was there ever a cease and deist order ever issued to a band called 'The Fallen' to change their name to 'We Are the Fallen' ". You repeatedly give examples of where the media called them "The Fallen", which again I am NOT disputing, but no proof that the band was actually given a legal order for them to change it, if it ever was OFFICIALLY called "The Fallen". ScottMHoward (talk) 04:08, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

This blog links to reliable sources such as USA Today. You're asking me if a letter was ever sent to them, then yes it was. --Homezfoo (talk) 01:45, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that blog is not a reliable source for information and the "USA Today" page that is referenced states nothing about the cease and desist order. However, on a good note, digging further through the sources of these websites, I stumbled upon the original press release. This appears to be the original content which caused blogs to report on the cease and desist notice. Given this final discovery of the source of this information, we must now ask: Is it important enough to be included in the article? I ask for others to weigh in on this. What are Wikipedia's guidelines on adding such information regarding the formation of this band's name? Was it REALLY just a big misunderstanding? How official WAS this order? Or was it just a phone call from "The Fallen" to SKH Music to say "Hi, we exist!" Right now I'm neutral about adding it but I'd like to see it left out unless we can get more opinions for inclusion. ScottMHoward (talk) 03:26, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Nobody really posts here so I don't think were going to get a response from anybody for a long time. I say we should put it in since they were called The Fallen at first and it seems pretty important. --Homezfoo (talk) 04:11, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

New articles.

I don't know if this is even appropriate (and if it's not, feel free to delete this section), but I wanted to let the editors of We Are the Fallen know that I have set up temporary sandbox pages for their new album Tear the World Down, single Bury Me Alive and potential single Without You. I figured this was the easiest way to get information updated on these articles (if they exist) without posting to the general namespace and have them deleted for notability issues. This way, once the articles do chart and/or become notable, we can just transfer these pages to the general namespace complete with fully updated information. Comments? Is this a bad idea? good idea? Any other suggestions? ~ [ Scott M. Howard ]:[ Talk ] 03:30, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Band Members

There have been multiple recent changes to the "Band Members" area of the page. These changes include subtitling the members with "current members" as well as capitalizing the instruments they perform. It is my understanding that capitalization is not necessary unless for proper nouns. Simply listing generic instruments should not have capital letters. Also, having the subtitle "Current Members" without having a "Former Members" listed directly below the main title "Band Members" is redundant and useless. If anybody can give good reasons why these changes should be made, please list them here before reverting these changes back on the article. Thanks! ~ [ Scott M. Howard ]:[ Talk ] ~ 01:50, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Infobox Image

So it's looking like we're not going to get a copyright-free image to use for the infobox any time soon (I've been checking flickr every week, but nothing has a license that Wiki will allow). Is there anything wrong with just puting their logo as the image? The logo should be fair-use in this instance, right? ..At least until we have a copyright-free image become available, of course... ~ [ Scott M. Howard ]:[ Talk ] ~ 01:59, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Just when I was beginning to lose hope, I find this image on flickr. With some cropping, I believe this could be a wonderful start for an image on the page. It is freely licensed (without monetary gain) and so qualifies for use on wikipedia. I'm not sure if uploading flickr images goes through any special process, so if there is anybody more familiar with this process, please do! Or give some comments on if it should/shouldn't be used, etc. Thanks! ~ [ Scott M. Howard ]:[ Talk ] ~ 00:22, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

See here: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Upload?uselang=fromflickr and here: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Help_desk_archive/2006Nov#cropping ×××BrightBlackHeaven^(talk)××× 00:36, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the links. I guess as it turns out, they aren't OK to be uploaded to wikipedia due to its non-commercial provision of its free license. I guess the search continues... =D ~ [ Scott M. Howard ]:[ Talk ] ~ 01:01, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Oh, hell. I didn't even notice. :( ×××BrightBlackHeaven^(talk)××× 07:48, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Charts

There's been a chart added to the page for "Bury Me Alive". Can we really add charts that are "impossible" to source? The link only points to a wiki page whose only link is to a page that you have to subscribe to in order to verify any information... I could easily change that rank of 38 to 1 without the vast majority being able to verify this information... shouldn't the article only have charts that can be sourced by the public? ~ [ Scott M. Howard ]:[ Talk ] ~ 04:38, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Monique vs. Hana

The section of this article handling who it was that led Ben Moody to Carly Smithson is apparently being misunderstood. The interview (which is clearly sourced) explains that Ben Moody's roommate, Monique, showed him videos of Carly Smithson. Hana Prestle (which is nowhere sourced that they have a relationship other than a co-worker elsewhere), only encouraged Ben Moody to contact Carly, reinforcing the opinions of Monique. Before changing this section again, please discuss the matter here. ~ [ Scott M. Howard ] ~ [ Talk ]:[ Contribs ] ~ 17:47, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Title capitalization - a proposal

Although there are a few consistent rules for English title capitalization that most everyone can agree on, I have come across many other standards that include proposals to lower-case "to be" verbs; such as am / are / is / was, etc. The reasoning is that this isn't an important element of a title / sentence, and doesn't need the same emphasis that standard verbs would. There doesn't seem to be an official standard, however, as English grammar is a subject of too much debate. Personally, I follow this format. Would anyone else support rendering the band name as "We are the Fallen"?

Bearing in mind, this is only a weak proposal. I'm not really pushing for the change. 72.150.234.68 (talk) 18:06, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

This is very tricky. There is explicit instruction on mostly everything on Wikipedia regarding articles (the) and the verb to be (are). But nothing is mentioned for band names except to follow standard English text formatting for proper nouns. However, in all cases where verbs and articles are mentioned, "the" is always lower case (except if the first or last word) and any form of to be is always upper-case. I believe the title is correct how it is currently displayed. ~ [ Scott M. Howard ] ~ [ Talk ]:[ Contribs ] ~ 23:05, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Disbanded?

While Carly Smithson and John LeCompte still have "We Are The Fallen" in their social media bios, the band's official accounts have not been active in over a year, and none of the material that Ben Moody was talking about in 2012 has appeared. Moody, Gray and O'Brian have removed any mention of WATF from their bios. I'd say the band has been on indefinite hiatus since 2012 (or early 2015, if you're feeling generous). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.241.103.140 (talk) 04:07, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Both ben and carly have been and will continue to focus on their families for the foreseeable future — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:100F:B019:89EA:68E0:B380:B28D:2C0E (talk) 01:35, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Well it would be nice if they made it official, not like it makes it any harder to re-form in the future. But anyway i've updated the article. Band is defunct no matter what they say. 10 years since album release, 8 since any public tour or communication. Sephiroth storm (talk) 05:50, 13 July 2019 (UTC)