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Reasoning for assessment: school infobox not appropriate. Important Jewish educational concept. Needs significant re-structuring and significant additional references.SBaker43 (talk) 05:34, 20 February 2011 (UTC)


no references then no B. Nice article but must be sourced. Victuallers (talk) 22:27, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Grammar fix[edit]

I fixed the grammar and also deleted two "editorializing" words -- demanding, and most intense. These are very subjective terms; I am sure that many (a majoritay? all? I do not know, you would have to do a survey) find yeshivot demanding. But this is a subjective claim that really is not very imformative. A lot of people find any kind of school demanding. Demanding by what criteria? In what way? This could be a valid article, but it needs to be developed. My advice for development: avoid subjective adjectives like "demanding" and "intense" and instead provide more information that describes what goes on.

It would be useful, too, to learn more about different kinds of yeshivot. Are there any umbrella organizations? How are they acredited? Does the state recognize them? Are non-talmudic subejcts taught? Are teachers liscensed? How? Also, what is the history of Yeshivot? Are Yeshivot in Ohio today much like yeshivot in Latvia three hundred years ago? Or have their been changes in their form and functioning? Slrubenstein

See Association of Advanced Rabbinical and Talmudic Schools, a rather unique organization, from an historical perspective.-- (talk) 18:42, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

accreditation and beyond[edit]

The Brooklyn Yeshivah I attended was fully state accredited, and we had a full day's 'secular' English-language program in the afternoon, in co-educational classrooms (too risque for some parents in the neighborhood, but not most, for our parents trusted the children and their teachers to keep order) and a full Hebrew-language, 100% Torah-based curriculum (meaning there were almost no nonreligious subjects except some slight attention to history) in segregated classrooms taught by rabbis in the morning.Actio (talk) 04:37, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

What types[edit]

Ezra, you help by clarifying that this is based on the Lithunian model. But can you add more information? I (and I bet others) would like to know when this model developed, and under what conditions (namely, what Jewish and secular education was available before this model; after the model was developed were their any alternatives? How were yeshivot financed? Has the financing changed ovr time, or as Yeshivot moved from Europe to Israel, the US, and elsewhere? Is the growth in Yeshivot in the US a primarily post Holocaust pehnomena? Were there US Yeshivot (Lithuanian model) in the US before WWII? Is there any centralized organization of Yeshivot, or is administration decentralized? In the US how do Yeshiva students get a secular education -- I mean, doesn't the state require children to learn English, math, science? Slrubenstein

This is okay... but we need more about Yeshiva's in general... not just about ones on the Lithuanian model -- Mon.

of course you are quite right. Can the article begin my listing the major models? Slrubenstein

The fact that the Mesilas Yesharim was lauded by the Vilna Gaon is not irrelevant. It is the reason why it is considered the preeminent Mussar sefer in Lithuanian Yeshivos.

Calling the Yeshiva ancient implies that it is outdated. That is simply an anti-Orthodox opinion. Are Lithuanian yeshivos the most active? It is debatable.

ancient does not mean outdated, it means established long ago.Actio (talk) 04:38, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeshivas for women[edit]

Are women allowed to study at these schools, or was it all made up for the movie Yentl?

  • Hi, firstly why didn't you sign your user name to your comments so that we can know who you are? Secondly, using "yentl" as a "reference point" is not good scholarship. Thirdly, traditionally and historically in Jewish history, only men and boys attended yeshiva, women were not obligated to study Torah formally. Fourthly, within present Haredi Judaism only males study in the yeshivas and females attend Beis Yaakov (Beth Jacob) schools. Finally, within present-day Modern Orthodox Judaism, some schools, sometimes also called "yeshivas", both male and female students study the same curriculum. IZAK 23:37, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
  • I'm not really a frequent Wikipedia user and was simply curious, so I wanted to know about this and I simply asked, but maybe I should've done it in a better way.

Concerning "Yentl", I think it's quite obvious that I'm ignorant about this matter and that's why I mentioned Yentl, because that is my only reference point and I never claimed that it's a good reference point or anything. I could've bought the whole thing, but I'm aware of the fact that Yentl isn't a good reference point (it's like using "not without my daughter" as a reference for islam) and that's why I asked - to find out.

Jewish women do not attend a yeshiva, but many attend a seminary with educational goals tailored to the traditional view of the roles of women. Some Modern Orthodox seminaries teach texts normally restricted to men. JFW | T@lk 11:14, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

This is arrant nonsense, pardon me for putting it so bluntly. I spent 8 years in yeshivah—an ORTHODOX yeshivah, with an Orthodox shul attached—in Brooklyn (Crown Heights) in the 1940s, a school that still thrives, in a different Brooklyn neighborhood, and yes, I graduated, and so did my brother. But we girls did NOT learn Gemorah. The term Modern Orthodox did not exist, because the Chasidim had not yet become a significant force, though the Lubavitchers were already well-established in our neighborhood. No one ever applied the term 'seminary' to our yeshivah. This article should not be slanted toward the Haredim, who are commonly referred to as ultra-Orthodox. Actio (talk) 04:40, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

If I may explain something, both in regards to the article in general and this subject. The term "yeshiva" in the U.S., for historical reasons, is used for ANY religious school, including elementary schools and co-educational schools. This is something of an oddity, although it may have spread. The article (which I have no connection with) is using the historical and international meaning of the term, which - although changing over the years - means a place where the Sages sit and where the Oral Tradition (later the Talmud) is transmitted. In Israel, it generally does not refer to an elementary school or a girls' or women's school. In the Igeres Rav Sherira Gaon, the history of the Babylonian Yeshivas by one of its most famous heads, he says that they were based on the Yeshiva in Teveriah (Tiberius) - which in fact was the Sanhedrin. Finally, the term Yeshiva Katana, used in its normal sense in the article, in the U.S often refers to a women's school.
Some of this should be in the acticle, I think. Perhaps the disambiguation should state the sense in which the term is used. (talk) 09:48, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

My God! Such ignorant nonsense in such an important Jewish subject. Beit Yaakov is NOT the female equivalent of yeshivot, it is simply the name of a very popular chain of schools for girls! The "female equivalent" (though Gmara usually isn't taught in these schools) is called a "seminary" (often called in short "sem"). I also don't understand the statement in the beginning, saying that "yeshiva" is a term in "classical Judaism". What the hell is "classical Judaism"? Does the author mean to say that the term is obsolete? If so, it is not. My best guess is that "classical Judaism" is meant as a strange euphemism for Orthodox Judaism. I've never written on the English Wikipedia before, but this is simply atrocious. --InbalabnI (talk) 00:50, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Please calm down. Where do you live? In the United states, a "Yeshiva" refers to any Jewish religious school. This is a source of some confusion in the article. Outside the U.S., many (not all) religious high schools for boys are called Yeshivot; therefore a Bais Ya'ackov high school would be equivalent. "Classical Judaism" or "Traditional Judaism" is used to refer to Rabbinic Judaism before Reform; to us Orthodox Jews this is the same as Orthodoxy, but as others beg to differ, we cannot necessarily edit that way. It is used to give a broader base to the Judaism of the RamBam and Shulchan Aruch.Mzk1 (talk) 08:39, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree "yeshiva" is ambiguous: it usually means an advanced rabbinic school like Mir or Telz, but in a different sense refers to ordinary Jewish high schools like the Yeshiva of Flatbush. In the latter sense, yes they admit girls.

"Classical Judaism" is, as far as I know, a term mainly used by Israel Shahak to demonise medieval and pre-modern Judaism. As the yeshiva in its modern form (Volozhyn onwards) does not antedate the rise of Reform Judaism, there is no need to avoid the term Orthodox. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 10:43, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

In U.S. terminology, even a grade school is a Yeshiva. Note that the original use of the term appears to refer to the Sanhedrin (see Igeres Rav Sherira Gaon). BTW, since there was no Reform in that part of Europe, I am not sure that one needs to use a limiting term like Orthodox. But for a Yeshiva, I suppose it is fine. (One day, everybody woke up and they were suddenly Orthodox, because someone opened a Reform Temple in Germany?)Mzk1 (talk) 22:01, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

List of prominent yeshivot[edit]

This list is rapidly degenerating into a general list of yeshivot. It should be moved to its own page. JFW | T@lk 01:08, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Let's move the entire list to a separate page, without leaving any names of yeshivas on this page, as there will always be dispute as to which yeshivas are "prominent". Ayinyud 07:39, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Where are all the non-Orthodox yeshivot?[edit]

There are a number of prominent yeshivas that are not orthodox. Where is the Union for Tradition Judaism's Metivta, or the Conservative movement's JTS, or the Conservative Yeshiva in Jerusalem? This article only presents the point of view of an Orthodox Jewish rabbi, and no one else. The Academy for (of?) Jewish Religion in Manhattan certainly fits the article's definition of a yeshiva as well (they claim to be "non-denominational", but that seems to be a cop-out for being Conservative without having to use a label. They do have some Orthodox rabbinical teachers, however, and even a few Reform. Mark3 ("3", because mark 1 and 2 are taken)

Article misleading[edit]

Yeshiva translates to acedemy. ..... gtg

Lack of bible study[edit]

Im not so sure about this entire paragraph. I have visited many modern orthdox yeshivot and found a great emphsis on bible studies, with at least 2 bible shiurim a week and recomended half hour/hour seder (study session) time on bible too. Not to mention parasha shiurim (weekly portion of the bible lessons) on fridays and recomended shnayim bmikra (reading the weekly portion) for students! (talk) 13:16, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Bible study[edit]

Although one of the blogs is my own and two of my (biological) brothers contribute to the other, it appears to be in accordance with the following WP policy.

"Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications."

"Work in the relevant field" - controversy related to the Yeshiva community.

See the NYT and Forward articles about "Chulent" - for instance.

As caveat, I'm merely attesting that the subject is (or certainly can be) controversial. It was originally put in by someone whom I don't know in person, and directly caused the ensuing posts.DayKart (talk) 04:44, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Unhelpful English version of Ivrit words for "large" and "small"[edit]

This might not deserve a new section but of course the first e in "gedola" stands for an unpronounced shwa; same for "ketana". Possibly "g[e]dola", "k[e]tana"or other indication that the words are pronounced as two-syllable words would be helpful.Svato (talk) 05:02, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Gaonic Period addition[edit]

I note that a large addition was made for the Geonic period. I welcome this, but think it needs work. Several issues come to mind:

  • How reliable is this source for the purpose?
  • The divisions were based on dogmatic schisms that took place in the third century C.E. Dogmatic schisms? This is the first I've heard of such a thing, and it seems to catradict all that I know of their history. What possibly could they have been?
  • There was a Yeshiva in Jerusalem? When and for how long? Rav Sherira Gaon, in his history of the academies, says that Sura was founded on "on the model of the Yeshiva in Tiberias". The "Yeshive in Tiberias" was, of course, the Sanhedrin. (I think this says something also about the original meaning of the term, but this is very close to synthesis.)
  • The title "Gaon" techinically belonged to only one academy (Pumbedita?)?
  • The Resh Galuta (Exilarch), who also had a sphere of infuence, should be mentioned, as well as some of the histories (Rav, Shmuel, Neharda'a, compiling the Talmud).

Now that the first editor has taken up the guantlet, I hope others will fill in.Mzk1 (talk) 21:09, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Specific Masechtot?[edit]

An IP-identified editor added the following

In the yeshiva system of talmudic study the first area to be mastered are eight mesechtohs (volumes that deal with a given subject which are divided into chapters that deal with sub-topics relating to the general subject) that deal with civil jurisprudence.

Could he be more specific (here)? What are these eight magic masechtot, and what are does he mean specifically by "civil jurisprudence"? Having studied in some well-known Yeshivot, both modern and Chareidi (but not Hesder), I've done plenty of Moed and Nashim, both in high school and beis-medrash.Mzk1 (talk) 06:28, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Please explain what you mean about recent modern Orthodox Yeshivot for women.[edit]

I don't understand this statement:
Until the late 20th century, yeshivot were attended by males only. Many Modern Orthodox yeshivot have opened since then for girls and women.
If by yeshiva you mean just a religious school, as in the U.S., then this isn't true at all; schools for women are neither specifically Modern Orthodox or that recent.
If you mean a traditional, full-time-Talmud study Yeshiva, are there really "many" for girls and women? Perhaps if you include Israeli Midrashot (some of them), but then Modern Orthodox may not be the best term. How many did you count?Mzk1 (talk) 23:04, 13 March 2011 (UTC)