Talk:Za dom spremni

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Problems with the "Origins" section[edit]

  1. The section produces no evidence of "Za dom" being ever used as a salute. All it offers are examples in which the word "za" is followed by "dom" as a part of a sentence, in various contexts.
  2. It produces no evidence of the salute "Za dom spremni" being used before the 20th century (likely because there is none), and establishes no connection between the phrase "Za dom" and the 20th century salute.

I'm deleting the section in 10 days if there are no objections. GregorB (talk) 00:22, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

This is pretty much a real-world WP:SYNTH violation. We could even cite Croatian mainstream media about it - today's the Branimir Pofuk column in Večernji nicely contradicts the practice. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:03, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
Indeed. It is almost an urban legend now - how "Za dom spremni" supposedly comes from the Zajc's opera - while there is in fact no such phrase in the libretto.
Wittgenstein said it best: the meaning of a word is its use in the language. So, in order to explain what "Za dom spremni" really means, one needs to enumerate when and how it has been used. And cut the confabulations, of course. GregorB (talk) 19:31, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
It wasn't mentioned that Za dom spremni came from the Zajc Opera, you could find that in the earlier revisions of the article together with it's alleged usage in the 19th century, while now it clearly states that it was used by the Ustaše as their official salute. Many people even clamed that only Za poglavnika i dom spremni was the official salute of NDH and now there are enough sources that prove otherwise (especially in Zbornik dokumenata i podataka NOR-a which lists the NDH documents from 1941-1945). About the origins, Za dom was used in many songs from the 19th century (not just two or three) in various forms, mostly together with praising God or king, they were surely not just random mergings of the words za and dom. If you need more sources for something I can try to provide them, but for the part about Za dom spremni usage you are right, there is no evidence that it was used before the 20th century. (Tzowu (talk) 20:50, 24 November 2013 (UTC))
Agree about the opera - I was referring only to the prevalent "urban legend" and the recent court case mentioned in the article that unfortunately seems to strengthen it.
That the phrase "za dom" was established before 20th century is somewhat plausible, but none of the examples showcases it as a salute, catchphrase or slogan.
There was an interesting find in that provides a bit of additional insight. While the text says nothing one way or the other on the origin of the salute, the opening paragraph clearly identifies it as an "Ustasha salute", rather than a "Croatian salute".
BTW, to everyone who worked on the article recently (you know who you are :) ): good job. It wasn't exactly presentable two weeks ago. So, at least something good came out of the "Šimunić incident" after all... :) On the downside, hr wiki article unfortunately just went a bit astray. I might try to address it shortly, but I feel it's going to be an uphill battle. GregorB (talk) 00:32, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
I don't know when Za dom started to be used as a salute, but it was definitely used before World War 2, one example can be found in Hrvatsko jedinstvo, year 1939, number 99, page 5 (bottom left)
Satovi tjelovježbe održavaju se svaki utorak i četvrtak u pola 9 sati na večer u prostorijama Jašione, ulica Pavla Radića i Đure Basaričeka broj 11, gdje se mogu ujedno i upisati novi članovi bez obzira na broj godina (kako je bilo prije pogriješno javljeno, da samo do 20 godina). Pozivamo dakle sve varaždinske intelektualce, studente, srednjoškolce, obrtnike,tr-govce, radnike i svu omladinu koja je voljna da se obnove tradicije i stare slave sjaj Hrvatske Sokolske Zupe Dr. Pere Magdića da se upišu u naš stijeg ˝Mla-dosti,˝ kako bi se i varaždinska hrvatska omladina našla u prvim redovima narodnog fronta, za bolju budućnost mile nam Hrvatske!
Uz naš pozdrav: ZA DOM!
Odbor mjesnog stijega
˝Mladost˝ Varaždin
(Tzowu (talk) 16:58, 25 November 2013 (UTC))
This is an excellent find, thanks! GregorB (talk) 17:31, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
I made some updates, it looks like Za dom i poglavnika was also used (although rarely) in 1941 Hrvatski branik, year 1941, number 51, page 2, and about the issues of Danica here is an example: [1]. I hope there are no more doubts about the reliability of the sources.(Tzowu (talk) 18:37, 25 November 2013 (UTC))

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Phrase Za dom i narod Slavjanski appears on a gloriette presented to Jelačić commemorating events of 1848. Not sure that constitutes anything of significance, but I thought to post here and let others form an opinion. (see p.420, p.595 and a poor quality partial image here on p.10 - item 19b).--Tomobe03 (talk) 11:41, 26 November 2013 (UTC)