Talk:Zharkovsky District
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Divsions
[edit]I added the three rural divisions and one urban division of Zharkovsky District, based on the OKATO data and topographic map data. Editor Ezhiki removed it saying sorry, but this is a total mess. I'm currently automating this piece anyway, so should be able to insert properly linked, complete, and up-to-date lists fairly soon. I fail to see what was messy about my addition, which was carefully handcrafted (not automated), and contained alternative spellings of some villages. Please, @Ezhiki: what was messy? and why total? --Bejnar (talk) 20:42, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, Bejnar, but it is indeed really, really messy. Many spellings/transliterations are off, parts of some toponyms are translated instead of transliterated, some transliterations do not comply with WP:RUS, most places are not linked to, everything is OKATO-based (and we try not to use OKATO unless as the last resort, because it's often inaccurate, updated with huge delays, and the assumptions it makes are fine for its primary goals but create many problems when used for encyclopedic purposes). The terminology is all wrong (urban localities cannot "include" other localities, for example; it's like saying "this village contains that village", which I hope you see makes no sense) and does not jibe with the terminology used in infobox summaries and elsewhere in this kind of articles across Wikipedia. No context is provided for this list in terms of how they fit into the overall administrative and municipal structure. Links to the low-level divisions should never be simple adjectives (like Shchucheysky); they should comply with the scheme used in other articles for this federal subject. In all, it is easier to replace all this wholesale instead of trying to clean it up, and on top of that, we are about to have tools that will make creating these sections on the fly, automatically, with references, up-to-date (and easily updateable when things change!) very easy. I don't mean to bash your work (I am sure you had the best of intentions), but the output was really, really subpar. Sorry again!—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); October 10, 2014; 21:00 (UTC)
- You may not like some of my transliterations, and I would have appreciated corrections, but the data was not just OKATO, is was also from togographic maps, and some of the alternative spellings were based on German maps. As to urban areas including villages, that happens alot. Sometimes they disappear, sometimes they become burroughs or neighborhoods, sometimes they become enclaves like Hamtramck or Rancho de Albuquerque; however just as a municipality (outside the US) is not the same as its town, it appears that the rural localities act as a, at least statistical, gathering of villages and not as villages themselves. Thus the village of Novoselki can be in the rural locality of Novoselki. Could you indicate a good example of the scheme used in other articles for the divisions of districts in the USSR? Also, if you are not using OKATO data, what data ar you using? In terms of links for the rural locals do make sure that you integrate with the disambiguation page at Novoselki. Lastly, Kamino in the Tver Oblast is a village and not the statistical gathering of a "rural locality". --Bejnar (talk) 21:25, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
- Bejnar, each federal subject (including Tver Oblast) maintains a registry of all of its localities, which is what is driving the tools I mentioned above. The lists are updated when there are changes, and I have means to track those updates fairly effortlessly (thus making it possible to easily update the affected articles—something I've been successfully doing for years). This sure beats manually tracking each locality, relying on a variety of sources which may be even more out of date than OKATO (which is supposed to be an aggregation of those registries, but in practice is not implemented that well). Tver Oblast-specific registries are already listed in the References section of this very article, so I'm not sure why you are asking me what is being used.
Transliteration of obscure place names is done using the WP:RUS guideline, and since this is the English Wikipedia, including spellings in German or other languages is not really appropriate.
The administrative and municipal structures do change over time, too, yet the most current structure is documented in the registries, and that's what we are normally using for this kind of lists. Terminology may of course vary from one source to another (often drastically), which is why a unified scheme is used for Russia, where "urban/rural localities" refer to populated places (towns, villages, settlements, selos, etc.) and other terms (many of which are federal subject-specific) are used for the administrative divisions. See, for example, city of federal subject significance, town of district significance, urban-type settlement#Administrative division, and selsoviet to appreciate the complexity of juggling all this terminology and still making it fairly uniform and consistent. There is a set of terms used to refer to the municipal formations (which are not the same as the administrative divisions, by the way) as well (see subdivisions of Russia#Municipal divisions). In all, this is not a field where taking any random term out of a random source is going to do anyone any kind of good in the long run. The big picture is seriously big, as far as human geography of Russia goes!
Finally, Novoselki is not a disambiguation page but a set index (a fact that's not really that important for the purpose of this discussion, but I thought I'd mention it anyway), and I was the one who created it in the first place, using the same tools I referred to above :) Creating a page like that takes, literally, about a minute, and it is far less error-prone that a manual compilation would be. The lists of inhabited localities in the district articles can be created just as easily once the infrastructure for the low-level administrative divisions is in place. Creating these lists manually wastes both your time (since much of your work will be overwritten) and others' (since people might attempt to clean things up in the interim). That's not a productive use of anyone's time; I hope you agree.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); October 10, 2014; 21:48 (UTC) - Could you indicate a good example of the scheme used in other articles for the divisions of districts in the USSR? --Bejnar (talk) 03:57, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
- Bejnar, each federal subject (including Tver Oblast) maintains a registry of all of its localities, which is what is driving the tools I mentioned above. The lists are updated when there are changes, and I have means to track those updates fairly effortlessly (thus making it possible to easily update the affected articles—something I've been successfully doing for years). This sure beats manually tracking each locality, relying on a variety of sources which may be even more out of date than OKATO (which is supposed to be an aggregation of those registries, but in practice is not implemented that well). Tver Oblast-specific registries are already listed in the References section of this very article, so I'm not sure why you are asking me what is being used.
- You may not like some of my transliterations, and I would have appreciated corrections, but the data was not just OKATO, is was also from togographic maps, and some of the alternative spellings were based on German maps. As to urban areas including villages, that happens alot. Sometimes they disappear, sometimes they become burroughs or neighborhoods, sometimes they become enclaves like Hamtramck or Rancho de Albuquerque; however just as a municipality (outside the US) is not the same as its town, it appears that the rural localities act as a, at least statistical, gathering of villages and not as villages themselves. Thus the village of Novoselki can be in the rural locality of Novoselki. Could you indicate a good example of the scheme used in other articles for the divisions of districts in the USSR? Also, if you are not using OKATO data, what data ar you using? In terms of links for the rural locals do make sure that you integrate with the disambiguation page at Novoselki. Lastly, Kamino in the Tver Oblast is a village and not the statistical gathering of a "rural locality". --Bejnar (talk) 21:25, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
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