Template:Did you know nominations/B3306 road
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by PFHLai (talk) 21:54, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
B3306 road
[edit]... that the B3306 road, in Cornwall, passes at least five iron age or neolithic sites?
Created/expanded by Gilderien (talk), Dr. Blofeld (talk). Nominated by Gilderien (talk) at 19:03, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Is Gilderien eligible for a DYK? They have only added around 650 bytes to the page, and Dr. Blofeld has added around 2700. Also, I fixed the requests formatting. --Tomtomn00 (talk • contributions) 19:42, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. I do not know if there is a minimum requirement for bytes added, but if there is, then probably not. However, I was planning on doing some more work on it this evening, when I have finished Rocher Rond, and should be back on it in about 30/40 mins.--Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 19:45, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- Sure! --Tomtomn00 (talk • contributions) 19:47, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- I've added roughly the same on the Rocher Rond article so we're about even lol.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:43, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
Looks in order, but you wanna fix footnote 2 (just goes to the wikipedia page), and maybe add who publishes Greatestdrivingroads. Looks ok for age and referencing otherwise. Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:41, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
I have added a permanent link to the particular location on google maps, with a link after the citation template.--Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 18:35, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
- Overriding Gilderien's tick just above because the nominator shouldn't ever use one; only a reviewer can give final approval. Casliber? BlueMoonset (talk) 22:21, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
Ultimately, I think we can pass this one..., not sure that greatestdrivingroads is a hugely reliable source, but what it is is self-evident and it is about enthusiasm and enjoyment, and illustrated to boot, so am happy to accept it for what it is. Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:10, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
I promoted this, and then pulled it back when I realized that while five sites may be listed by name in the article, nowhere in the article is it mentioned that these are iron age or neolithic sites as claimed in the hook. The article must explicitly state this fact; "historic monuments" is far too vague. Checking the Dummies source leads me to believe that five may be four: the Dummies book says "Zennor Quoit, also called Mulfra Quoit", which would indicate they are one and the same. (It doesn't seem to mention Sperris, but that one may be on the previous, not-in-preview page.) I should probably also point out that Dummies says Zennor/Mulfra is Early Bronze Age, not iron or neolithic. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:07, 4 May 2012 (UTC)ALT1: "... that the B3306 road, in Cornwall, passes at least four iron age, bronze age or neolithic sites?— Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 18:57, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
- I removed Mulfra Quoit as a separate site from the article, and then searched the two given sources for Sperris Quoit, but according to Google Search it's not in either of them. You need a source that confirms the fact that it's near the road. BlueMoonset (talk) 19:13, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
- Okay, I've got myself a copy of "The Rough Guide to Devon and Cornwall", which, on pages 286-289, confirms that Zennor Quoit (and by extension Sperris Quoit), Lanyon Quoit, and also the not-yet included Chûn Quoit lie alongside or within a few hundred metres of the road. I will add this to the article, and attmpet to find a source for the Ancient village as well.--Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 19:40, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
- I removed Mulfra Quoit as a separate site from the article, and then searched the two given sources for Sperris Quoit, but according to Google Search it's not in either of them. You need a source that confirms the fact that it's near the road. BlueMoonset (talk) 19:13, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
ALT2: "... that the B3306 road, in Cornwall, passes at least five iron age, bronze age or neolithic sites?"
- Well, the online edition of the Rough Guide (dated 2004) seems to be covering different material on pages 286-289 from your copy, because 286 in the online is Isles of Scilly (uninhabited ones), and 289 is a title page for the North Cornwall coast chapter. If the table of contents is to be believed, the unavailable 287 and 288 are more on those uninhabited isles. You'll need to specifically cite your edition (even if offline) rather than link to this one. I could find Chun on page 259 of the online version, but Rough Guide lists B3318, not B3306, and the directions from Chun to B3306 seem quite involved—a farm track to a local road for a mile to the minor Morvah–Madron road which is accessible from B3306 (but nothing on how far you have to travel from B3306 along the road to get to the local road). That sounds too far away to qualify as "passes". And I'm afraid I'm going to have to be fussy: "and by extension Sperris Quoit" has to be explicitly footnoted: you probably ought to say that they're very near each other in the article, and have to footnote the fact, for the connection to be allowed in the hook. BlueMoonset (talk) 20:15, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
- Ok, I just saw that my edition is the 2007 (third) edition, I'll remove the URL, as I can't find it on Google Books. As for the footnote, do you mean that in the B3306 article I should add a sourced note that there is only 400 metres between Zennor Quoit and Sperris Quoit, and this runs parallel to the road? Also, using the OS maps, Chun Quoit is less than a kilometre from the road, but I guess that counts as WP:OR. Thanks for your help.--Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 20:39, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, that's what I meant about Sperris. Here's a book that mentions Chun and B3306, so it won't be OR. What you might want to do is a single multi-source reference at the end of the sentence, since you're up to about five sources. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:26, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
- Okay, thanks, I'll do that.--Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 13:05, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- I've added the source, using Citebook, but not as a multi-source reference, as I can't work out how to do it. Anything else :-) ?--Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 13:48, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- I've done the multi-source reference; there's a fair amount of duplication. You can decide which you'd like to get rid of, though the new source I found for Sperris (better than the website, I think) is definitely needed, as is at least one that specifically mentions Zennor and B3306. The big problem appears to be Chysauster, which I can only find mentioned in relation to B3311, not B3306; I couldn't list it on any of the individual references. Looking at the map, B3311 is definitely the closer of the two roads by about a mile, and it is the road cited in Dummies. Unless there's something more favorable in your edition of the Rough Guide, I think it may have to go. Was it the only Iron Age site in the list? If so, the hook may have to change again. Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings... BlueMoonset (talk) 03:55, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
- ALT 3 "...that the B3306 road, in Cornwall, passes at least four Bronze Age or Neolithic sites?"
- The village was the only one thats not in my edition of the Rough Guide, so I've removed it. Can I use a source that says something along the lines of "Zennor Quoit is in the parish of Zennor [...] Zennor is on the B3306"?--Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 10:26, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
- No, use one of the sources already there that directly associates Zennor Quoit and the B3306. (I didn't mean you needed to find a new one, or that you needed Zennor without the quoit. Please forgive my abbreviated style in the last post.) I notice you've capitalized "Bronze" in "Bronze Age", which is a good catch; however, according to my dictionary (and the Wikipedia articles), it should be "Bronze Age" with both words capitalized. Also, "Neolithic" should be capitalized when referring to the period of time, which this does. So the hook and the article should be corrected to use these capitalizations. However, the Bronze Age article is inconsistent as to whether the word "early", when it proceeds "Bronze Age", should be capitalized, so for the article I'd go with the orthography in the source you're retaining for Zennor Quoit that mentions the bronze connection. (One that did was Dummies, which also specified the B3306, but it may not be the only or even best one to cite.) BlueMoonset (talk) 14:10, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
- I've changed the ALT 3 hook. Will add sources for Zennor et al. --Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 16:47, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
- No, use one of the sources already there that directly associates Zennor Quoit and the B3306. (I didn't mean you needed to find a new one, or that you needed Zennor without the quoit. Please forgive my abbreviated style in the last post.) I notice you've capitalized "Bronze" in "Bronze Age", which is a good catch; however, according to my dictionary (and the Wikipedia articles), it should be "Bronze Age" with both words capitalized. Also, "Neolithic" should be capitalized when referring to the period of time, which this does. So the hook and the article should be corrected to use these capitalizations. However, the Bronze Age article is inconsistent as to whether the word "early", when it proceeds "Bronze Age", should be capitalized, so for the article I'd go with the orthography in the source you're retaining for Zennor Quoit that mentions the bronze connection. (One that did was Dummies, which also specified the B3306, but it may not be the only or even best one to cite.) BlueMoonset (talk) 14:10, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
- I've done the multi-source reference; there's a fair amount of duplication. You can decide which you'd like to get rid of, though the new source I found for Sperris (better than the website, I think) is definitely needed, as is at least one that specifically mentions Zennor and B3306. The big problem appears to be Chysauster, which I can only find mentioned in relation to B3311, not B3306; I couldn't list it on any of the individual references. Looking at the map, B3311 is definitely the closer of the two roads by about a mile, and it is the road cited in Dummies. Unless there's something more favorable in your edition of the Rough Guide, I think it may have to go. Was it the only Iron Age site in the list? If so, the hook may have to change again. Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings... BlueMoonset (talk) 03:55, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, that's what I meant about Sperris. Here's a book that mentions Chun and B3306, so it won't be OR. What you might want to do is a single multi-source reference at the end of the sentence, since you're up to about five sources. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:26, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
- Ok, I just saw that my edition is the 2007 (third) edition, I'll remove the URL, as I can't find it on Google Books. As for the footnote, do you mean that in the B3306 article I should add a sourced note that there is only 400 metres between Zennor Quoit and Sperris Quoit, and this runs parallel to the road? Also, using the OS maps, Chun Quoit is less than a kilometre from the road, but I guess that counts as WP:OR. Thanks for your help.--Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 20:39, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
- Well, the online edition of the Rough Guide (dated 2004) seems to be covering different material on pages 286-289 from your copy, because 286 in the online is Isles of Scilly (uninhabited ones), and 289 is a title page for the North Cornwall coast chapter. If the table of contents is to be believed, the unavailable 287 and 288 are more on those uninhabited isles. You'll need to specifically cite your edition (even if offline) rather than link to this one. I could find Chun on page 259 of the online version, but Rough Guide lists B3318, not B3306, and the directions from Chun to B3306 seem quite involved—a farm track to a local road for a mile to the minor Morvah–Madron road which is accessible from B3306 (but nothing on how far you have to travel from B3306 along the road to get to the local road). That sounds too far away to qualify as "passes". And I'm afraid I'm going to have to be fussy: "and by extension Sperris Quoit" has to be explicitly footnoted: you probably ought to say that they're very near each other in the article, and have to footnote the fact, for the connection to be allowed in the hook. BlueMoonset (talk) 20:15, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
- ALT3 is approved; I'm striking out all the others.
- As I noted earlier, sourcing is already more than sufficient for the hook and the article. It makes no sense to add more sources. My point was that there are currently more sources than you need, and care should be taken that when you trim the duplicative ones out you make sure that what remains references both each site and its proximity to B3306. In any event, you'll need the source that places Sperris Quoit in proximity to Zennor Quoit. You could make do with the last three only, for example, deleting the Andrews and the Thomas. Or you might want the Thomas to bolster the Olson (Dummies), if you feel that the Dummies series doesn't have enough gravitas. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:45, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
