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Template:Did you know nominations/Kathleen Freeman (classicist)

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 01:02, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Kathleen Freeman (classicist)

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Created by Srsval (talk). Self-nominated at 13:58, 18 April 2022 (UTC).

  • I would like to review this nomination, and will do so shortly. TSventon (talk) 14:53, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Srsval, review follows.
General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
QPQ: None required.

Overall: Thank you for an interesting article, which needs a few tweaks for DYK. It is new enough as a WP:GA, long enough and neutrally written. It is mostly cited inline and I have assumed good faith where I could not access sources. However the paragraph beginning "Freeman is best known for her works" needs to be cited. Do sources say "Freeman was gay" or leave it for readers to work out for themselves? Also I couldn't verify the paragraph beginning "In recent years Freeman's work has been re-assessed" in the sources provided. Earwig's tool shows some overlap with sources, which is mostly due to names of books and University College... However "writing 27 books ... Mallett" seems to be a quote From Ancilla to the Pre-Socratic Philosophers and should be reworded. The hook facts are stated in the article, but are currently not immediately followed by an inline citation to a reliable source. Also could you possibly provide an alternative hook based on detective fiction? The picture in the article is fair use and cannot be used on this nomination page. You are QPQ exempt as this is your fourth nomination. TSventon (talk) 23:59, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks TSventon for your time and effort reviewing this. I've added a citation for the paragraph beginning 'Freeman is best known for her works...'. I've reworded the sentence about 27 books to avoid overlap, and I've added a citation to the sentence about Freeman's work being reassessed. I removed then re-added the bit about her short stories being republished as I found a reliable source. I've also added in a reliable source for the hook. Srsval (talk) 20:05, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Srsval, thank you for your answers and edits. I regret that I haven't been able to suggest any obvious improvements to the article, which I suppose will always be more difficult for a new good article. I still have some questions below, which I have numbered for convenience.
1 You didn't answer whether sources say "Freeman was gay" or leave it for readers to work out for themselves?
2 I have found some close paraphrasing of An Unconventional Classicist, some may be unavoidable, but could you have another look at the wording?
  • "It is not ... Greek, or from whom"
  • "Freeman had a working ... Greek"
  • "Except for French, ... languages"
  • "the University ... charter granted in 1893"
  • "A picture of the faculty ... had a doctorate"
3 Could reference 4 be merged with reference 2 as both are editions of An Unconventional Classicist?
4 The citation for the paragraph beginning 'Freeman is best known for her works...' only mentions the Ancilla, do you have a reference for the Companion?
5 The Queer Square Mile reference says Freeman is the subject of research, I don't think that that shows that her "work has been re-assessed, especially in the light of queer traditions in Welsh women's writings", could you reword based on the references?
6 "From early in her career, Freeman worked to bring Greek texts to the general public through her work in translating texts and presenting her ideas to general audiences" still needs to be directly followed by a citation, as it supports part of the hook
7 "During the Second World War Freeman delivered lectures on Greece for the Ministry of Information and in the National Scheme of Education for HM Forces in South Wales and Monmouthshire" you didn't give a page number for the reference, however it is supported by An Unconventional Classicist, page 323.
8 You uploaded File:Kathleen_Freeman_-_Obituary.jpg as your own work, however it is not your own work if you just scanned it and as a 1959 newspaper article it is probably still copyright protected, see Commons:Commons:Copyright rules.
9 Should Ministry of Information be wikilinked in the hook?
10 I don't find the hook particularly surprising, could you provide an alternative, possibly mentioning the detective stories? TSventon (talk) 07:26, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Hello all, Just a line to say I'll pick this up, after @TSventon: posted here about it. Might take me a couple of days to get my head around the details though! Lajmmoore (talk) 17:07, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
I'm going to strike throuhg points above as I address them Lajmmoore (talk) 17:11, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
I have nominated the 1959 newspaper clipping for deletion on Commons and have struck question 8. TSventon (talk) 17:26, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
Point 8 I'm not a Commons expert, but I think it's a bit more complicated - this says the file was originally uploaded under Fair Use as a "historic portrait" by @Jason.nlw:, but I agree there might need to be an update of the non-free use rationale Lajmmoore (talk) 17:30, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
For Point 1 - I added whose opinions are in the cited sources to be clear where the evidence is coming from Lajmmoore (talk) 17:52, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
For Point 5 (& apologies this is out of order, I'm addressing things by ease :D ) - I think I've clarified the text so it aligns more closely with the sources Lajmmoore (talk) 18:02, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
For Point 2, I've copy edited the sentences picked out Lajmmoore (talk) 18:09, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
  • ALT1 * ... that Cardiff-based classicist Kathleen Freeman wrote detective fiction under four separate pseudonyms? Source: Irwin, M. E. (2004) 'Freeman, Kathleen (1897–1959)', in Todd, R. B ed. The Dictionary of British Classicists. Volume I, A-F. p. 344. Source2: Carty (2014). A Dictionary of Literary Pseudonyms in the English Language. New York. p.448. ISBN978-1-135-95578-6. OCLC931534831. Source3:Carty (2014). A Dictionary of Literary Pseudonyms in the English Language. New York. p.448. ISBN978-1-135-95578-6. OCLC931534831.
I've also struck Points 6, 9, 10 now there's and ALT1 hook suggested. On the subject of the image, Fair Use images can't be used in the DYK, but I don't see an issue with it being used on the page under Fair Use as its a "historic portrait of someone no longer alive". Please let me know if there are any further changes or clarifications to make Lajmmoore (talk) 18:28, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
Image deletion - it just dawned it was the newspaper clipping - I missed that detail, so struck my comments on it out. I'm a bit over-tired I think, so please forgive that oversight. Lajmmoore (talk) 18:33, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Lajmmoore, thank you for stepping into the breach. I am now happy with points 2 to 10. As to 1, I would incline to remove the phrase "Freeman was gay" or now "According to classicist Edith Hall, Freeman was gay". TSventon (talk) 22:54, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Moved to Talk:Kathleen Freeman (classicist) § "Freeman was gay"
 – TSventon (talk) 14:18, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Srsval, I am now happy to pass this. I have a slight preference for hook ALT1. Lajmmoore, thank you again. TSventon (talk) 19:10, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Lajmmoore for picking this up and all of your work on this! I'm really glad to see this on Wikipedia's front page today, brilliant! TSventon Sorry I couldn't get to it, it was a lot of work at a busy time Srsval (talk) 12:34, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

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