Template:Did you know nominations/Salton Buttes

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 14:49, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

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Salton Buttes[edit]

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Red Island and Rock Hill are three of the domes, as seen from Obsidian Butte which is a fourth dome.
Red Island and Rock Hill are three of the domes, as seen from Obsidian Butte which is a fourth dome.
  • ... that the Salton Buttes (pictured) in Southern California are lava domes which formed less than 2,000 years ago?

5x expanded by Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk). Self-nominated at 16:47, 26 August 2018 (UTC).

  • Nice article. I've had a preliminary look at it. It's newly-expanded and Earwig informs me that you have copied the titles of the sources you quote, which seems fine. It will take a while for me to read the sourcing, as it is extensively-referenced. On content, it might be appropriate to mention the hazard to humans (and maybe the obsidian source) in the lede, as it is likely to be of interest to readers.
The sentence construction in the article often requires a reader to remember half a statement through several other clauses before reaching the other half of the idea at the other end of the sentence. I can't find the source I'm looking for here, but there's research like this, which shows that this sort of structure needlessly loads working memory and decreases comprehension. HLHJ (talk) 02:55, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
I'll add this stuff in the lead. I am not sure in general how to resolve the readability issues, though. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 06:04, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
HLHJ Any updates? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 13:05, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
Apologies, Jo-Jo Eumerus, I have neglected this. I have just done a through copyedit; I can describe the sort of thing I did and the reasons for it if you want to know. I hope I haven't written in my misunderstandings, but generally the text seemed unambiguous.
I have also added some more images, and requested a contrast adjustment on the otherwise excellent picture of a gryphon. I have not checked all your sources! I will try and check some more. You seem very conscientious, and checking them all is not a requirement. I have added names to the co-ordinate tags, and one of them, for Mullet Island, seems a bit off (see the OpenStreetMap link). You have accurately reflected the source, but it looks like the USGS is wrong. I can e-mail them and ask, unless you would prefer to do so?
There are some bits that I think are a bit too jargony, such as "The domes are formed by rhyolite,[1] which has an alkaline and calcium-poor composition[16] and defines a potassium-rich suite". I couldn't figure out a way to add wikilinks that clarified that, so a bit more in-text explanation might be needed. It's amazing that we have no geothermal field article, but that's by-the-by.


General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: No - I'm not sure if the hook fact is ideal, given impression of some remaining controversy
  • Interesting: No - Could be more hooky

Image eligibility:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: HLHJ (talk) 04:38, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure the ages are the best thing to have in the hook. A bit more context in the "Research history" section might help; mention of when the assorted research was done, or any details surrounding it (motivations, funding, new research group, etc.), would help give a sense of a coherent history. Some hook suggestions:
  • ALT1 ... that as the Salton Sea dries up, the (pictured) gryphons are multiplying? (other picture used)
  • ALT2 ... that the Salton Buttes volcanoes (pictured) are growing on top of an embryonic ocean?
  • ALT3 ... that at the Salton Buttes (pictured), you can climb a volcano to its peak and still be below sea level?
  • ALT4 ... that one of the largest and warmest geothermal fields on the planet lies around the Salton Buttes (pictured)?
  • ALT5 ... that obsidian from the quarries of the Salton Buttes (pictured) was widely traded?
I will get back to this faster, and if I don't, don't hesitate to nag me. HLHJ (talk) 04:38, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
The existing map is awkwardly cropped to irrelevant political boundaries. Would one of these work, with overlaid labels? Or we could crop something out of OSM. HLHJ (talk) 04:49, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
Problem with these two maps is that they need modifications and that the current map is really the standard for such maps. I've renumbered your ALT hooks, I think that ALT5 might be the most interesting (other than ALT1 which would cause complaints about WP:EASTEREGGs) but not really much more than the currently proposed one. As for the "The domes..." sentence you flagged as jargon, I don't think that such text can ever be plain - this is a natural sciences topic after all. There is something wonky with the formatting of the last image you added, it seems to be breaking the paragraph flow on my monitor. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 06:03, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
I've modified some of your edits for the reasons indicated in the page history; mainly the "eruptive history" section as it was controversial but now it's agreed upon that the eruptions took place quite recently. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 06:19, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
A salse bubbles carbon dioxide in the NielsenNiland Field
Thanks, I was pretty sure I'd misunderstand something. Good to have it fixed. I've requested a better map, and failing that will make one following the standard format for mountains, but cropped to the geology. The "Research history" section does a good job of listing what was estimated and how, but some information about why the estimates are different would be good. I've had another go at wikilinking that sentence about rhyolite composition, and requested a QAPF diagram on the linked page, not sure how helpful that would be but it's a start.
I've played with the dimensions of my window, but I can't make the paragraph formatting break. I can't see anything wrong with the markup. I may be missing something; if it's still bad, any details you can give might help. Do you think the salse image would be a better DYK illustration? The photo quality and interest are certainly high, but it's clearly not a butte, so it would need a modified hook.

Picking an experienced editor off the Wikipedia:Did you know#Willing to help list. EdChem, could you comment?

I think in the DYK context, WP:EASTEREGGs are called "tease" hooks, and are acceptable; Wikipedia:April Fool's Main Page/Did You Know uses only tease hooks. But I could be wrong, and if someone more experienced could comment, please, that would be good. HLHJ (talk) 04:21, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
Well, "Salton Buttes" is the name of the volcano. Then again place names do not necessarily have to make sense. I'll see about adding a little about why the age estimate differ. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 06:03, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
HLHJ? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 13:23, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
OK, to-do list. I'd prefer a better map; Wikipedia:Graphics Lab/Map workshop/Archive/Sep 2018#Border-spanning map for volcanism is not seeing any volunteers, so I'll have to do that myself. You are working on the age estimate rationales. I've pinged an experienced DYK editor with vaguely relevant interests above about hooks above. As for place names, they do seem slightly nonsensical. I think, subject to correction, that "Buttes" is a slightly inaccurate name for the hills, which at ~40m would be rather overlookable if they weren't on flat lake sediments, while the "Niland Field" is the name of the much larger geothermal field, and the article covers both, following the USGS in treating them as near-synonyms. I've had a go at clarifying this, crit welcome. HLHJ (talk) 16:54, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
I've had a preliminary go at a regional map; it's not so good as a locator, but it makes the geography on both sides of the border clear. Apparently the way to get linear features on a map is to make an overlay image. Do you know of anywhere that offers a cross-border fault map? Text contrast is terrible, suggestions and other crit welcome. HLHJ (talk) 21:46, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
HLHJ Um, I don't like saying this but does any of the hooks and the article satisfy Wikipedia:Did_you_know#DYK_rules now? The DYK process is not really a general peer review. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 09:24, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
Fair enough. I think the original hook is not supported by the article:

Most of the Buttes formed between 1,800 and 2,300 years ago, although Mullet Island may be 5,000 years older.[1] According to the Global Volcanism Program, Mullet Island formed 290 BCE ± 100 years, Obsidian Butte 10 AD ± 100 years and the other Buttes 210 AD ± 100 years.[40]

While adjusting the date to "less than 2300 years ago" would bring it in line, the section on dating is the weak point in a strong article, so I think a hook on a different subject would be better. However, if you strongly prefer such a hook, I'm willing to go with it.
The image is not very visible and I think that one of the images at Commons:Category:Salton Trough geothermal activity would be preferable. Again, this is a judgment call and it's your article, so if you prefer the original image, go ahead.
If you want to get this closed, by all means pick a hook and image, and I'll strike the others and check it off. HLHJ (talk) 18:21, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
OK, in my opinion either ALT1 or the original hook modified to "... that the Salton Buttes (pictured) in Southern California are lava domes which formed less than 2,300 years ago?". I checked WP:DYK and saw that MOS:EGG (Great name for a shortcut, I must say) compliance is not in fact mandatory. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 18:48, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
  • ALT6 ...that the Salton Buttes (pictured) in Southern California are lava domes which formed less than 2,300 years ago?
That is a great shortcut name. Sorry I've let this egg gather moss. The less zingy WP:DYKR#Review the hook has the only formal reference I've found to tease hooks, and it's not clear on the intersection with MOS:EGG. I've struck everything except ALT1 and ALT5, and I'm happy to let the promoter pick if you are. Do you have prefs on images? The image refs in the hooks could be modified accordingly. HLHJ (talk) 02:08, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
I'd pick the original image (File:Salton Buttes - Red Island and Rock Hill from Obsidian Butte - closeup.JPG). Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 07:48, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
OK. Over to the promoter, then. Sorry that took so long. HLHJ (talk) 00:00, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
  • @Yoninah:File:Salton sea mud volcanoes.jpg and File:Salton Sea mud volcano.jpg both show gryphons, but that may not be optimal for hookiness. The vent image with a caption like "A salse bubbles carbon dioxide in gryphon country" would be accurate (salses and gryphons co-occur here), but a variant of the same would also work with the first image, which Jo-Jo Eumerus prefers. HLHJ (talk) 23:37, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Yes, that's the one I meant. Apologies for the ambiguity. HLHJ (talk) 00:30, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
Gryphons multiplying
It seems that salse (geology) and mofette would both describe the CO2 bubbles image. Do we need/want to show a gryphon? HLHJ (talk) 02:07, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
We don't need to, but I'd prefer if we did. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 07:18, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
  • I've brightened the gryphon image, but I'm still not convinced that it looks very good. The landscape is just rather low-contrast. The raking golden-hour light in the salse photo is a good technical solution, but we don't have such a photo of gryphons (I wondered what the poor USGS photographer doing out there at 11pm on Christmas day, but then I found this and realized he was an ornithologist, so probably the Christmas Bird Count, and probably not actually 22:42:58 as the sun would have set five hours earlier). I don't know the reasons for your image preferences, Jo-Jo Eumerus, so my suggestions may not be to the point. HLHJ (talk) 18:45, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Thanks! :) HLHJ (talk) 05:34, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Yoninah, could you give your preferences given the new image? Jo-Jo Eumerus, could you give the reasons for your preferences? I'd prefer the salse image to the gryphons image and the landscape image, since I think a close tie between the image and hook is secondary to each of them being interesting and relevant to the article. A text-only hook would also work. HLHJ (talk) 00:59, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
  • I'm ready to promote ALT1 without the image. Yoninah (talk) 01:00, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
  • The problem of using the salse image is that it isn't the same as a gryphon and the hook is about gryphons. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 09:09, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
  • @Jo-Jo Eumerus: As I said above, all the images don't turn up well at thumbnail size. ALT1 is a great quirky. Shall I just be bold and promote it already? Yoninah (talk) 14:39, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
Sure. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, :contributions) 14:41, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
Yay! Restoring tick per HLHJ's review. Yoninah (talk) 14:45, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
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