Template talk:NKP named trains
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Corrected company association
[edit]Incorrectly, an editor credited the Westerner to the Nickel Plate Railroad. As this timetable indicates http://viewoftheblue.com/photography/timetables/DLW042554.pdf it was a Lackawanna Railroad operation. As this timetable http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track3/westerner196009.html indicates, the Lackawanna's Westerner cars continued through Buffalo, transferring to the NKP as the New Yorker.Dogru144 (talk) 19:51, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
- I disagree; see [1]. The NKP and Lackawanna and several such collaborations. For all that, my June 1962 official guide lists the New Yorker/Westerner (different names for the east- and west-bound trains) under the Nickel Plate and not under the Erie-Lackawanna. Mackensen (talk) 21:32, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
- I beg to counter: primary sources trump secondary sources. With all due respect that the book author did, the author was erroneous. Look at the references that I provided. These give clear evidence that the Westerner was a Lackawanna train. The Nickel Plate provided the cars from west of Buffalo, authority continued east of Buffalo, by the Lackawanna railroad. Yes, you have the official guide. (That's not what you gave in your linked footnote. You gave a Mike Shafer book.) Even so, I referenced a scanned Lackawanna railroad schedule. http://viewoftheblue.com/photography/timetables/DLW042554.pdf Yes, this was a shared train authority operation, standard procedure for semi-transcontinental routes, one company took part of the trip, one or more took the remainder. But let's be clear: the Nickel Plate had no trackage east of Buffalo, the route of the Westerner. East of Buffalo was LVRR, NYC, DLW, etc. As to (different names for the east- and west-bound trains), the fact is, as evident from doing Internet research upon the respective companies, the New Yorker was the east and the west name between Chicago and Buffalo, and east of Buffalo, the Westerner was the name. Look at the named trains cited in streamlinerschedules.com. Many trains, particularly in the middle section of the country, changed names, as the operating locomotives and train line companies changed over the itinerary of the thip.Dogru144 (talk) 17:16, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
- Note also these references: See this ca. 1956 Lackawanna timetable: http://viewoftheblue.com/photography/timetables/DLW042554.pdf
- I beg to counter: primary sources trump secondary sources. With all due respect that the book author did, the author was erroneous. Look at the references that I provided. These give clear evidence that the Westerner was a Lackawanna train. The Nickel Plate provided the cars from west of Buffalo, authority continued east of Buffalo, by the Lackawanna railroad. Yes, you have the official guide. (That's not what you gave in your linked footnote. You gave a Mike Shafer book.) Even so, I referenced a scanned Lackawanna railroad schedule. http://viewoftheblue.com/photography/timetables/DLW042554.pdf Yes, this was a shared train authority operation, standard procedure for semi-transcontinental routes, one company took part of the trip, one or more took the remainder. But let's be clear: the Nickel Plate had no trackage east of Buffalo, the route of the Westerner. East of Buffalo was LVRR, NYC, DLW, etc. As to (different names for the east- and west-bound trains), the fact is, as evident from doing Internet research upon the respective companies, the New Yorker was the east and the west name between Chicago and Buffalo, and east of Buffalo, the Westerner was the name. Look at the named trains cited in streamlinerschedules.com. Many trains, particularly in the middle section of the country, changed names, as the operating locomotives and train line companies changed over the itinerary of the thip.Dogru144 (talk) 17:16, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
and this ca. 1960/1961 E-L timetable: http://www.hudsoncity.net/tubesenglish/eriechicagotubesmedium.gif and this explanatory summary: The Westerner and the New Yorker were the Nickel Plate/Lackawanna's entry in the through Chicago-New York market. (While other trains exchanged through cars, at the time of this schedule these were the only true through trains that the railroads jointly operated). Here you see the trains on the eve of the Erie-Lackawanna merger, which would occur the very next month (October 17, 1960). While the trains would continue to operate into 1961 the handwriting was on the wall; the newly merged railroad would be dominated by the larger partner Erie. The Nickel Plate's days as an independent railroad were also numbered; bereft of its long-time outlet to the East it would be swallowed up by Norfolk and Western in 1964. From the pages of the Official Guide, September 1960 Then, the streamlinerschedules.com gives the schedule. http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track3/westerner196009.html Editors, please note this schedule: "Continuing Train Number" at Buffalo means that the operation switches over to the D,L,W from Buffalo southward.Dogru144 (talk) 17:31, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
- OK, it looks like a joint operation all the way, and that it is Westerner, west-bound, and New Yorker, east-bound, when reading the second text page of the ca. 1956 Lackawanna timetable http://viewoftheblue.com/photography/timetables/DLW042554.pdf. But as before, note page 3 of ca 1956 timetable, it refers to "Connecting Trains," and it refers to Nickel Plate as running the Chicago to Buffalo segment.Dogru144 (talk) 18:01, 17 July 2013 (UTC)