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User WikiProject Argentina template

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I'm writing you regarding the {{User WikiProject Argentina}} template, that many of us contributors use in our user pages. I believe it to have slowly degradated to something that doesn't represent the common ideo of the users that participate of this project. The last version by Darklegions (talk · contribs) reads:

  • "The motto of the WPAR is Firmiter Unum Pro Patria, which translates to, "Firmly united for the Motherland". This motto reflects the desire to dramatically improve the quality and standards of Argentina-related articles on Wikipedia, and is a reference to the Argentine National Defense School."

I have no idea what does the National Defense School, or the Military of Argentina, have to do with the contributions to the Argentine related articles. It was pointed out that {{User uk wikipedian}} has a similar format, but I couldn't care less about it.

The purpose of this project is to contribute to Argentine related in general, and I see any connection with military out of place. You don't even need to be Argentine to participate, as contributor AntonioMartin (talk · contribs), so nationalist reference such as "Firmly united for the Motherland" seams to me out of place. I suggest we re.write the template to a more general profile; I wouln't use it as it is right now, because I don't feel represented by it. Mariano(t/c) 11:01, 23 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, it would be nice to contact me before posting here, just a matter of education. If you didn't noticed before, the previous motto of the template was Semper Excelsius, but I changed it to reflect a more "Argentine" sense, exactly because this is the WikiProject Argentina. What do you want, a E Pluribus Unum slogan? You're insulting me saying that is a "connection with the military" or "nationalist propaganda", frankly this took me a significant amount of time and effort; but if you feel that is a "degradation" the inclusion of an official Argentine motto just delete it all. --Darklegions 16:51, 23 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I see both points, and I think we can solve this creating a simple poll with different mottos at Template talk:User WikiProject Argentina; it'll be interesting, surely will help in the re-organisation of the template, and the motto chosen will be a little more "democratic". Personally I like the motto of the UNT, Pedes In Terra Ad Sidera Versus, or maybe the UNC one, In Spiritus Remigio Vita; also they reflect a more encyclopedic idea =). Peace guys, Wikipedia is not a battleground. What do you two think? --OneEuropeanHeart 17:07, 23 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Why must we have a motto? I suspect any "authentically Argentine" motto will have a POV problem, and more general mottos might be, well, simply nice phrases. Simply having a precedent ("other projects have mottos") is not a good reason to feel obligated to have a motto. The motto-less original form of the template was simple and informative enough. And finally, I can't imagine something less typically Argentine than a Latin phrase. Now, "Los hermanos sean unidos, que ésa es la ley primera" could just be it... :) --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 17:30, 23 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
We aren't "obligated" to use a motto, IMO it's only a good idea. And sincerely, I'd prefer In Spiritus Remigio Vita instead of "Los hermanos sean unidos, que ésa es la ley primera"; it's quite nicer, you can't deny it =). --OneEuropeanHeart 18:22, 23 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'd rather NOT have a motto. If this is not possible, at least let's have one closely related to our culture, that can be shared by everybody: para un argentino no hay nada mejor que otro argentino should do it. And, if it has to be Latin, nothing better than Ego puto in horto meo User:Ejrrjs says What? 19:10, 23 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What are your reasons for that? BTW, Para un argentino... isn't a motto, is an essay. --Darklegions 02:20, 24 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm also against any motto. As I stated at the beggining of this discussion, many non-Argentine users are contributors at this project, and they need not any Argentine motto. The purpose of the Project is to create and improve the Argentina related articles, that's it. Mariano(t/c) 08:22, 24 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Of course you're against it, you created this discussion! As OneEuropeanHeart, Ejrrjs, and Pablo D. Flores' purposals, we must have one related to our culture and Wikipedia's encyclopedic idea, without compromising other foreign users' membership -- but not forgetting, of course, that this is still the WP Argentina. Frankly, I really don't understand why you feel so disturbing this idea; if we can't gather consensus through discussion we can create a poll, as OneEuropeanHeart said. --Darklegions 19:09, 24 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello to all! I'm new in WPAR but not in Wikipedia, and I'd like to support the idea of a motto, why not? Have a good day! --ShiningEyes 20:50, 25 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As of now, the best argument I can present against the idea of having a motto is that we're arguing over it. Darklegions, I didn't propose a motto, I just mentioned half-joking that the famous sentence from Martín Fierro would be better (in my view) than a Latin phrase. We did not have a motto before Nkcs (talk · contribs) added it, and I think we can live without one, especially when we're still, as I said long ago, cuatro gatos locos and we've all better things to do, like writing articles. For the record, I was indifferent about this before, but I'm now definitely against having a motto. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 22:20, 25 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Err, it wasn't Darklegions, it was me =P I completly agree with you, we must focus on writing articles; as stated before, I consider this only a good idea. Of course we can live without one, but it'd be a shame the loss of this purposal; there are a lot of interesting Latin phrases and mottos (take a look) and I think we can choose one satisfactory to all parties — at least En Unión y Libertad! =D --OneEuropeanHeart 23:24, 25 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Let me clarify: I'd rather NOT have a motto, much less a Latin one. Nobody in Argentina knows that language (but "El Colegio" alumni, of course). User:Ejrrjs says What? 00:39, 26 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Excuse me? AFAIK you're opinion was already stated, what's your problem with me? Or I can't express mine 'cause you'll censor me? --ShiningEyes 04:33, 26 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, wrong indentation :-( It was a rebuttal to Darklegions' comment regading my position. User:Ejrrjs says What? 18:23, 26 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What now? Shall we go for a voting or we agree on having no-motto? Mariano(t/c) 08:11, 27 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you don't stated any reason for the deletion, so I don't think we "agree on having no-motto". --Darklegions 21:14, 27 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If no consensus is reached, I will suggest this motto: En Unión y Libertad; this one is less controversial and sounds nice. When a subject is controversial, a third option should be taken into account. Mxcatania 14:37, 29 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Reminder

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This is a project, not a nationalistic forum (altough you should remember that those who betray the motherland are in the deepest circle of hell, see it.
I think we could add this reminder in the template. Argentino 21:51, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If we must do it, let's finish first the current issue =) --Darklegions 02:56, 11 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Motto poll result

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The proposal to adopt the motto Ad Astra Per Aspera (To The Stars Through Hardships) has won in the poll conducted above. Sorry folks, I went on vacation and forgot to close it. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 11:23, 17 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You're not the only who forgot this =) Thanks for the help mate! --OneEuropeanHeart 02:06, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If I may be allowed to express my disappointment at the result, I'd say that everybody having forgotten about the poll is a sign that we're busy with encyclopedic work rather than arguing about a Latin phrase, and the arguments above could have been avoided by letting everybody subscribe to the project without being labelled with a motto.
I don't dislike the motto that has been chosen, but I do dislike the reference. Since I feel it's always best to expose one's bias, I'll say that I don't like any reference to the military, especially the Argentine military, or any implication of patriotism or heroism related to war, the military, or anything that implies blowing up other people. I won't make a problem out of this, but I wanted you guys to know because I'm taking the WikiProject tag out of my userpage (though I will leave the link to WP:AR and promote the project whenever I find a suitable spot for it). —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 14:34, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I also don't feel represented by the template, so I kinda 'bypassed it' as you can see in my talk page. Hope nobody gets upset about it. Mariano(t/c) 15:41, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hey, no need of such comments, my change was in good faith, sorry. No problem guys, I'll remove it ASAP =) Have a good day. --OneEuropeanHeart 18:58, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Only came across this today. I would probably prefer no motto in the template. The template should represent all project members. Otherwise it is used less. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 16:41, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Same as Tobias here, too bad I laid low for a while and couldn't participate. I will continue being part of the project but I'd rather remove the template from my userpage. I don't really like the motto idea, and if we have to have one, let it be in spanish (and preferrably not related to the military either...). Sebastian Kessel Talk 06:03, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I took a page of Mariano's book... but you get the gist of it. Sebastian Kessel Talk 06:07, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]