User:Bookku/Talk page preparation

WP:ARE#Petextrodon

WP:ARE#Petextrodon Wikipedia:Contentious topics/Sri Lanka

Though uninvolved why I am taking interest?

To begin with I took interest thinking it may be simple content issue spilling over because not following WP:DDE and WP:DR properly. Some of my interest align with my understanding of South Asia, war time humanitarian issues and impact of polarization related initiated drafts I did not work on up til now and User:Boud/Draft:WikiProject Peace last but not latest initiative from my side on RfC etiquette.

My understanding of the issues

Though it may have been simple WP:DR issue initially:

Multiple article talk page discussions seem to have opened in relatively short duration some weeks?

Passionate WP:nationalist editing seems to be from both side.
Some RfC etiquette issues relating following seem to increase complexity?

1) Unwillingness to distance and move on after putting across their point of views due to Passionate WP:nationalist editing leading to:

1.1) Some users really may not be aware of canvassing related rules, hence some cohesiveness seem to be there looking like vote stacking.

1.2) Set of users seem to be discussing same things over and over again with limited recourse to meaningful policy based discussions.

1.3) Not taking discussion breaks and distancing even when issues are at central notice boards like ANI ARE.

1.2 and 1.3 together seem to give impression of WP:BATTLEGROUND

My suggested solutions

IMO some out of box solution would be needed.

1) Improving understanding among users about RfC etiquette and WP is not for WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Increasing user awareness that impact of Wikipedia articles on real life scenarios is less than marginal compared to any other mass media or social may help.

2) At least for six months Status quo at all Wikipedia:Contentious topics/Sri Lanka.

3) Distancing by present set of involved users / Topic ban at least for one year.

4) To break monopoly, if any, of present set of users, some innovative strategy, so that up til now uninvolved but WP policy well versed new set of users join the discussions to help resolve pending issues after six months.

5) After one year strict word limits and how many edits and comments they can make in present CTOP area.

6) Mean while I would concur with Robert McClenon suggestion one month immediate Topic ban on all and additional topic bans as needed individually for extended period on those users unwilling to fall in the line.

Talk:Jinn RfC formatting

All the present three users are on the same page to follow RfC etiquette
Changes since DRN User Louis P. Boog and TheEagle107 agreed to sort out their expected updates in article body first by creating sandbox page with exact updates they expect are at User:Louis P. Boog/sandbox/Jinn sandbox 4-20-2024
Update is requested there are 4 paragraphs, consisting 9 sentences around 12 inline refs and around 15 supportive refs in foot note by TheEagle107. User Louis P. Boog and TheEagle107 pl. count and suggest correction, if any. Please suggest if we need to number those paragraphs/ sentences for convenience.
Can we divide RfC in two sets one set that intends to add emphasize upon importance of Jinn in Islam, Muslim scholarship and Muslim world; the second set that contains doubts about Jinn. The second set VenusFeuerFalle wishes to challenge under WP:NOTNP.
We seem to need assistance in formatting RfC. We can ping admin and The WP:DRN the moderator User:Robert McClenon since they expressed their willingness to provide assistance in submitting an RFC if requested.

WP:RS : One more essay, or updating present ones?

May be you know, here @ WP I keep taking some constructive initiatives to fill information and knowledge gap areas. Also have started doing little bit of content level of mentoring. Since last couple of months I am contemplating to take initiative to get couple of essays written from other experienced users.

One essay, I would like to take initiative, which would give glimpse of meticulous selection and application of academic scholarly sources that would have better chance to stand at GA, FA, CTOP and during any intense level of content negotiation. Some essay similar to WP:TIERS but with more practical examples and guidance.

Idk from where to begin whom all to request. I know as of now already there are good number of essays exist and still I do think there is scope for reviewing present essays finding and discussing gap areas and promoting one more essay as said above.

Currently available sources: WP:RS#Essays, WP:ESSAYDIR#Verifiability and sources, WP:APPLYRS

Requesting inputs.

.

"He who digs a pit for others falls in himself."
Wikipedia:Follow the leader
List of fallacies :
Ad hominem – attacking the arguer instead of the argument.
The courtier's reply is type of informal fallacy, in which a respondent to criticism claims that the critic lacks sufficient knowledge, credentials, or training to pose any sort of criticism whatsoever.
Appeal to the stone
WP:OUCH in a nutshell: Consider your own behavior before bringing attention to the behavior of others.
Nitpicking
What is suggested is FAQ and VFF focus seem digressing from suggested solution towards user behaviour
Example: Agreed raising a different issue suddenly may be surprising and discomforting some times, - Though ignored by everyone else, taking up this different topic suddenly by VFF some one could have easily objected to by VFF own standard why you are taking up different topic before finishing ongoing discussions at hand nobody did so. Eagle107 was a known user to VFF but what if an altogether new user would have appeared suddenly raised the topics raised by Eagle107; everyone would have had to address the topics as raised - then is not VFF overreacting that couple of topics were raised suddenly by Eagle107.
Though Eagle107's RfC itself not nuanced so even responses too would have inherent limitation. After 25th May there was no other disruption from Eagle107 other than contesting on VFF on content and creating RfC bit in haste without waiting for more inputs for formation of question. Still RfC question is largely neutral and even in absence of VFF user - inputs are in VFF favor so far. Nothing new happened for VFF to get suddenly emotional at the article talk page. Personalised response at Article talk when non-personalised summary was expected when even user inputs in RfC seem favoring VFF line of contention.
5 Years back a user had said to VFF 'you are way too quick on the draw.' VFF still remains hasty then at least appreciate other new users too can make mistakes and one need to learn saying things without discrediting them unnecessarily.

Essays

Guidance from essays

Hanlon's razor : "Do not attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by confusion."
WP:CALM WP:LETITGO
Essay referred by VFF: Wikipedia:Avoiding difficult users ".. instead, troublesome users are generally ignored, and so are their angry remarks about your wiki-reputation. .."; "..Most people have simply decided to ignore those difficult users and, also, ignore the veiled insults or other mud thrown at wiki-reputations. .."; ".. Instead, just keep a private list, off-line from Wikipedia, so that when the names of difficult users re-appear, you can review their infamous antics of the past, and take evasive action. .."
WP:NOTTHERAPY Practice being sensible, sane, and productive, but know that your psychological state is not an acceptable excuse for disruptive editing.
Address edits, not editors These are all ad hominem fallacies laced with argument to emotion as well – a.k.a. demonization. Focus instead on what was said, not who said it or why you imagine they did so:
How positive responses benefit and negative ones don't help as much
WP:DISCFAIL Wikipedia is built around a model of collaboration through discussion and edit summaries are not intended to substitute for that discussion.
WP:DISCFAIL all content dispute resolution procedures – Third Opinion, Dispute Resolution Noticeboard, and Request for Comments (though the requirement is very weak there) – require thorough talk page discussion at the article talk page before a request for DR can be properly filed.
Wikipedia:Avoiding talk-page disruption : Guidance for established users ".. A presently prevailing majority opposition does not validate a prima facie claim that the new proposal is an attempt to upset consensus. A new addition may, in fact, provide something new to consider, regardless of the immediate negative emotional response that such a change might normally evoke. ref Policy WP:CCC Editors may propose a change to current consensus, especially to raise previously unconsidered arguments or circumstances. On the other hand, proposing to change a recently established consensus can be disruptive. Editors may propose a consensus change by discussion or editing. That said, in most cases, an editor who knows a proposed change will modify a matter resolved by past discussion should propose that change by discussion. Editors who revert a change proposed by an edit should generally avoid terse explanations (such as "against consensus") which provide little guidance to the proposing editor (or, if you do use such terse explanations, it is helpful to also include a link to the discussion where the consensus was formed).
WP:SOLVE Sometimes, an editor will have the technical knowhow, emotional capacity, or simple desire to participate in only one of these stages. That is perfectly okay—this project is a collaborative, incremental effort in which editors can choose to volunteer as much or as little as they wish.
WP:IDONTLIKETHEM At Wikipedia, we require the opposite to apply. Emotion does not trump logic. The point of an encyclopedia is to provide information, not to describe what you "like" or "don't like". We are not trying to "win" what Steele and Beasor characterize as a "game". Wikipedia is not a business deal. It is an encyclopedia. Well-argued statements beat personal, subjective tastes.
WP:MEDIATE : ".. Additionally, a mediator may strike out, collapse, delete, or otherwise close all or any part of any posting on those pages which is incivil or which comments upon or seeks to discuss user conduct. .. "
WP:It's not the end of the world: ".. The Administrators' Noticeboard exists for the more extreme cases of harassment and general disruption towards Wikipedia. It doesn't exist for you to run off and complain because that nasty Wikipedian over there said something you didn't like. Don't shout your mouth off and throw your toys out of the pram, as that can make things worse. .."

Fallacies to study

hasty generalization: Hasty generalization is an informal fallacy of faulty generalization, which involves reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence
The fallacy of composition is an informal fallacy that arises when one infers that something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole. A trivial example might be: "This tire is made of rubber; therefore, the vehicle of which it is a part is also made of rubber."

Time line

10 March 2024 LPB attempts to edit article Jinn almost after 3 years which is reverted.
12 March VFF reaches out at LPB talk page but 14 March LPB declares disagreement. (Irony: 12March VFF discusses content at user talk page after communication of disagreement and on 31 March indulge in clear Ad hominem at the article talk page as deconstructed below)
16 March LPB approaches at WP:3O
18 March: I approached VFF talk page from WP:3O to share my primary suggestions with both users since discussion at Talk:Jinn needed clarity. Also indicated VFF that, WP:Edit summary is usually brief statement to indicate what the edit is about and many times may not suffice as sufficient synopsis to understand the issue for other Wikipedia users. (even to share WP:3O)
19 March: User:StereoFolic reaches Talk:Jinn to share WP:3O inputs expressing similar constraints saying ".. It seems that several different pieces of content are under dispute here, but with the way this thread is scattered with lengthy quotes and subsections makes it difficult to understand. Lacking a clear, succinct description of exactly what the disputes are, I can only weigh in from my impressions..." StereoFolic also expresses their concern "..That said, VenusFeuerFalle I believe you would have better success in navigating disputes with more civil language, as edit summaries like this seem unnecessarily combative to me. .."
31 March 2024 In typical Ad hominem – attacking the arguer instead of the argument: VFF in answer to StereoFolic's concern about combative tone casts further aspersions that too not related to article Jinn in any way and on 3rd April makes self admission to LPB "..Since this has nothing to do with the article, see personal talkpage.." First discredit the user in unrelated matter and asks to see personal talk page when asked for explanation, this also need to be noted that VFF was well aware that article talk page is not for personal altercation still used it to discredit LPB and avoid when own purpose is over. (Later get very angry when Eagle107 brings in previous altercations from unrelated pages as 'Eagle's grudge' but wish to remain oblivious to own prejudices from previous unrelated instances with LPB.)
Though it was adhominem in relation to article Jinn on 3rd April I shared tips with LPB at their talk page and suggested to take VFF legitimate concerns in good spirit (see: Some friendly tips). I also suggested LPB to meet impatience with patience and focus on content dispute avoiding personal altercation, over all, LPB seem to be doing appreciably good on that count since then.
4th April LPB filed WP:DRN VFF replies once same day but skips subsequent discussion, though moderator Robert McClenon too said dispute seems resolvable with some more discussion; when reminded 12th April VFF repeats adhominem at article talk page but did not join again at WP:DRN. 15th April: Moderator Robert McClenon closed WP:DRN as WP:DISCFAIL due to lack of further response by one editor (VFF) and advised WP:RfC.
19 April In my further discussion at article talk, LPB agreed to my two suggestions a) to prioritize discussion on article body content before article lede discussion. b) Create own version of the article in own sand box with exact additions / changes they are seeking about. 22 April accordingly LPB presented their expected changes sandbox
VFF is rightfully unhappy about Eagle107 casting aspersion, same time VFF does not stop own adhominem aspersion "..since noone except you and the user with the questionable edits since 2 years discuss this. .."[Sic] to discredit the disagreeing users.
7 May VFF raises, also CR, RS and OR related concerns. CR is addressed by myself, RS is referred to WP:RSN and OR is referred to WP:NORN
Since 20th May Eagle107 begins removes content related to section comparative mythology takes objection over Infobox mention without ref and adds POV template. VFF and Eagle107 both engage in edit war until 25th May when admin increases article protection in anticipation discussion will take place
25th May VFF's WP:AIV report against Eagle107, but admin User:ToBeFree classifying edit warring is out of WP:content dispute in the edit summary protected the article Jinn per WP:PREFER up to 19:06, 1 June 2024 and also warned "further edit warring would probably cause a need to long-duration partial blocks to prevent the impact on other editors" in their edit summary. There was no doubt WP:DE issue on side of Eagle107 , but VFF too engaged in Edit war probably both crossed WP:3RR ; Appeal to emotion There after rather than discussing at user talk page discussing behavioral issues at article talk and discrediting too is part of it Discrediting user Eagle107 on NPOVN
Policy: Wikipedia:Dispute resolution#User talk page: ".. If the issue is a conduct dispute (i.e., editor behavior) the first step is to talk with the other editor at their user talk page in a polite, simple, and direct way. Try to avoid discussing conduct issues on article talk pages. .."
Policy: Wikipedia:Dispute resolution#Noticeboards:If discussion with the editor fails to resolve the issue, you may ask an administrator to evaluate the conduct of the user. You can ask for an administrator's attention at a noticeboard such as the administrators' noticeboard for incidents (ANI). ... Administrators and the community will look to see if you have tried to resolve the conflict before escalating, .. "
Guideline: WP:DDE
Policy WP:VAND WP:NPA


	Jinn	Talk:Jinn
Bookku	20 June 2024 Only one edit to revert clear vandalism When other regular involved users did not seem around The rest has been uninvolved on content side so far.	12 April 2024: First edit since content dispute started Informing VFF and LPB that moderator is waiting for their inputs at WP:DRN Some notable edits: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 5 avoid micro-agression 6 7 8 9 At User Talk:Bookku: 1, 2, 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 At User Talk TheEagle107: 1 2 3 4 At User Talk Louis P. Boog 1 2 3 4 5 6
Louis P. Boog	2019 Seem to have had reasonable contribution opportunity, 2021 - LPB editing attempt seem to have been reverted by IP, 10-11 March 2024 content dispute begins	March 2019: LPB and VFF seem to have had very cordial discussion. Talk:Jinn/Archive 1#Primary sources and other possible issues 14 March 2024 - 1: Seem to have had a discussion with user Skyerise which seems sorted out issue of Oversized images" 14 March 2024 - 2: Talk:Jinn#Belief in jinn and belief in Islam This is beginning of ongoing "content dispute" between LPB and VFF
TheEagle107	Seem to have edited in dispute on 2024-04-17	2024-04-13 Seem to have entered in discussion first with this edit.
VenusFeuerFalle	Present episode since 2024-04-10	Present episode since 2024-03-14

Pl. reflect and refactor

User:VenusFeuerFalle some times comes across as quite reasonable (For example this 2019 interaction in between VFF and LPB - so I also had positive impression about them when I began my discussion facilitator role with positive expectation). They (VFF) also seem to gain trust by convincing they use RS sources with possibly some access to good sources; to my recent updated understanding, at other times they seem to throw various surprises (They ask RS from others and on their part can also wish to get away with answer Sky is Blue instead of serious attempt to find sources or support with logical deduction) and indulge in avoidable personal altercations, discredit users at article talk page/ notice board effectively having WP:LEADER benefit by Ad hominem – attacking the arguer instead of the argument, casting unproven aspersions, in spite of admins asking them to not to do so.

Misrepresentation:

@ VenusFeuerFalle About this comment,

1) Keeping with my approach to prioritize content -If you loose track, go back to the track- I suggested you all to attempt/ work for WP:FA.

2) If one tries to continue cycle of prioritizing finding faults in users one disagree with than prioritizing content, then can end up making mistakes of misrepresentation, as explained below-

a) VenusFeuerFalle says in their comment ".. Maybe because most of them were not even admins?.." Factually three out of four, User:Doug Weller Doug Weller, User:Daniel Quinlan Daniel Quinlan, User:Joe Roe Joe Roe are admins to whom User:Louis P. Boog seem to have approached for guidance and help. Though LPB's approach to User:Gaismagorm ‎and Joe Roe seem to be in initial confusion, but is in good faith.

b) This Xtool analysis shows no edits by User:TheEagle107 at User talk:Joe Roe, but still VenusFeuerFalle is including link to Louis P. Boog's edit at User talk:Joe Roe in their ANI report against TheEagle107 claiming to be 'serious threat'! (Louis P. Boog and TheEagle107 seem distinct users to my editorial understanding so far). Seems, VFF is simply inadvertently mixing up unrelated, and over reacting on that basis ending up misrepresenting. Which, I would urge, VFF need to reflect and refactor.

Why I suggested admin review before directly going to ANI

Why I request admin review before directly going to ANI

I prefer focus on content and not personal altercations to save my own time and energy, It helps me avoiding escalation to ANI level if it gets sorted out at Admin level.

Why do I prefer to contact last last active admins from WP:ANI?

First we know they are already active in resolving disputes, Second it remains easy for us to prove our neutrality, that we are just not going to admin of our own choice, but who so ever is available. If one is busy we can request next last one editing admin from ANI.

How do I understand some one is admin or not?

WP:ANI is watch listed by me, though, usually, I do not indulge in personal altercations, once in a while browsing that notice board keeps me updated about various policies and also helps understand who is admin from their admin actions like blocking and all, But when we do not know if some is admin or not what is the solution. I go to WP:ANI history If I am not sure if last editing one is admin or not I check if their user page is categorized as admin or not? Second way is I open user contribution page reach the end, there I find 'User rights' link which mentions if some one is an admin for example this WP link informs whether User:Joe Roe is admin or not (Of course Joe Roe is an Admin).

Issue of TheEagle107 uses word Cherrypicking?

On 25 April 2024 Eagle107 communicated at my talk page about their 'Cherrypicking' concerns link at Talk:Jinn, then through 26th I remained busy in analyzing sources presented by them at LPB's sandbox for example my this response clearly states a limitation in one of TheEagle107 - so I am neutral while analyzing potential issues in their sources and guiding them about the same. On 27th I replied LPB and Eagle107 with applicable policies to sort out content issue as I prioritize content side.
When on 30th April Eagle107 complained personalizing altercations at my talk page after an edit war broke out with VFF What is my reply? Just not to personalize! and also a long advice not to personalize at Eagle107 talk page How this is not neutral or blurred by Eagle107's accusations or favoring Eagle107? Eagle107 replied once again at my talk page at least saying it's not about being personal.
The way I had suggested LPB to work on their version in their on sandbox (and they did) similar suggestion was also given to Eagle107 to work on own version in own sandbox to achieve consensus before editing article. Idk where from VFF is inventing any favor, non-neutrality or getting my vision blurred due to Eagle107's accusations?