User talk:Der HON

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good morning you delete many destinations from kavalas airport page but the flights will take place

Independent sources

Why are you removing the request for independent sources, as you did, for example, at Varna Airport? There is nothing wrong with requesting an independent source. Even when not mandatory, the request is valid. The Banner talk 23:03, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Good Morning,

The request is indeed valid, but I wouldn't say that:

DO NOT ADD OR REMOVE ROUTES WITHOUT GIVING A VALID INDEPENDENT SOURCE.

is a request but an obligation. And as sources from airports and the airlines itself are very okay with the guidelines, I don't think that message takes the right approach.

But I'd like to ask: Why did you change the original message, which did not have that "independent" in it?

Best regards Der HON (talk) 08:15, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

1. To improve the reliability of Wikipedia
2. To entice people to use independent sources instead of related sources (airline, airport) due to the risk of spam.

The Banner talk 10:37, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Of course I would say airline booking pages are absolutely no sources, but articles like following:

https://www.austrianairlines.ag/2022/09/30/austrian-airlines-erweitert-oesterreich-anbindung-aus-berlin/

Which do clearly state everything needed to add a route and have got more detailled information than any "independent" source should be promoted more than independent sourced as latter do not have such a big reliability. Der HON (talk) 10:50, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

No, independent sources should be promoted. Press releases are also not independent but due to the type of work inherent spam. The Banner talk 17:53, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Just my two cents: Their use should be supported, but the current phrasing "without giving a valid independent source" is misleading as it is not *mandatory* to use secondary references and guidelines such as WP:AIRLINES cleary state that official schedules are valid sources for these entries. This hidden note has been added without concensus to hundreds of articles and there was a corresponding admin board discussion condemning this meaning it can be ignored anyways (rightfully so). Best regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:A61:3ACF:BD01:C0D7:6CD:1C07:3CD1 (talk) 07:06, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Ah, mr. IP, still afraid for reliability. The Banner talk 07:40, 2 October 2022 (UTC) And do you have proof of your claim?

I have to fully agree with Mr. IP. If you want to support independent sources, well, that is no problem, but your formulation is an obligation, which is not okay. Sources from Airports and Airlines are way more reliable, and infact, they know way better which schedules they're operating and which not. Better than any independent media source.

And the hidden note you now have been adding is fully against the guidelines:

As just as written above, WP:AIRLINES states that official sources are of course fully okay. Der HON (talk) 13:35, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

1. Where is your claim written on wp:airlines?
2. A local consensus can not overwrite a wikipedia-wide community-decided policy like WP:VER.

The Banner talk 14:19, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, meant WP:Airports.

See e.g.: "The best source is typically the airline's schedule listing a flight number" This section applies to Passenger and Cargo services.

I still can not figure out what your problem regarding official airline and airport sources is. They are the only reliable ones. Independent sources are frequently wrong in terms of dates and frequencies. One should encourage to use official sources like the ones I posted above.
Der HON (talk) 15:35, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

I am still waiting for a direct link.

And WP:VER is clear about reliable sources. It states in Wikipedia:Verifiability#What counts as a reliable source: Base articles on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Source material must have been published, the definition of which for the purposes of Wikipedia is made available to the public in some form.

On the other hand, I do not understand why you think that a local consensus can overwrite a policy. Press releases are inherently unreliable as their primary function is to promote. The Banner talk 15:49, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Latter is wrong. Press releases are not unreliable because they may be promoting themselves.

See this definition: Something unreliable is something that cannot be trusted or depended on

Though in terms of information and data these sources can be fully trusted. No airline would ever use wrong information and data in their own press release.
Der HON (talk) 16:11, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Ow, I found your quote. It is related to cargo airlines, not to passenger airlines. The Banner talk 16:07, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Should be relevant for pax, too. Or would you support that is okay to use those airline/airport sources for cargo services, but not for the passenger table?
Der HON (talk) 16:12, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

It states cargo airlines, not passenger airlines. So claiming that to fight sources for passenger airlines is plain wrong and based on nothing. The Banner talk 16:17, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Where is the major difference that would disable using airline/airport services for pax services when it is okay for cargo?

And just as written slightly above: Those sources can be trusted in and depended in, making it reliable per definition. Der HON (talk) 16:21, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

No, they are not reliable as not being independent. Sorry to blow up your misunderstanding. The Banner talk 16:26, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

There might be a misunterstanding or misinterpretation on your part, references do not *need* to be independent to be reliable as clearly stated in our policies. Best regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:A61:10BC:201:9CB2:7E1F:965:3044 (talk) 10:38, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Do you have proof of that? The Banner talk 11:08, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Clearly stated in our corresponding policy. 2001:A61:3ACE:2501:2497:1F3C:65A2:B89E (talk) 09:37, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Larnaca International Airport

Can you keep an eye out on Larnaca International Airport. Wappy2008 is driving me crazy. To my opinion, removing of sourced information is vandalism but all warning are ignored. The Banner talk 14:11, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Good evening,

Indeed I have been monitoring Larnaca Airport a bit, as I just made some major changes to it a couple of days ago, mostly regarding generic sources for short season only charter routes, which in my opinion are nothing but nuisance.

Speaking about the removal of routes from and to Ukraine and especially Russia I'll do a little pro- and cons list.

+:

- War will be over one day, so the routes will certainly be re-established

- There are indeed sources attached to the airlines clearly stating the suspension of operations

These sources are not talking about any routes being cut

- Wiki-wide, we tend to keep these routes in the tables

-:

- One can not even guess when the war will be over, if anytime soon

- Travel will take some time to recover, so not all routes, especially to smaller russian/ukrainian airports will need their time

Speaking generally, I am in favor of removing routes to airports where we certainly now that infrastructure is damaged so severely that operations are not even possible. This should be confirmed by a source.

Regarding the other, more normal services, I'd keep the routes in the table just like right now.

(But who am I to decide?!)

All in all I though can't see the point in adding and removing them constantly and accusing yourselfs of vandalism mutually.

Paging @The Banner and @Wappy2008. Der HON (talk) 19:56, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I think I lost my cool about his spiel. Thanks for your calming words. He brought me to the edit warring-notice board, not realising that the admins there can see how he is acting. The Banner talk 20:27, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

No problem! Looks like he created another account just to be able to keep changing the airport page.

I must admit that I'll be more careful using the word vandal now, after reading the edit warring-notice board.

All in all, we'll all hopefully be able to learn something out of this.
Der HON (talk) 18:36, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Seeing the comment on his talk page, I think that more misery is coming. The Banner talk 21:18, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Sourcing of Airport Destinations

Hey man, just wanted to point out the fact that you are acting quite ignorant on this database. Not everything can be sourced on certain destinations, as airlines usually do not announce charter seasonal flights. With that, you still decide to act like a dictator on this database and think you are the ULTIMATE editor. I would suggest that you become less strict and maybe try to do your own research on unsourced routes to really see if they are true or not. That is all I have to say. Shayan MB24 (talk) 15:47, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Good evening,

- as airlines usually do not announce charter seasonal flights. -

That is correct.

- and think you are the ULTIMATE editor -

That doesn't sound too nice, I do only enforce the guidelines, which do require sources for changes to the airline and destinations table.

- maybe try to do your own research on unsourced routes to really see if they are true or not.-

Yes, that is what I do every time. Many editors do not source new additions and I then check wether the route exists or not. If it does, it is okay for me that is unsourced, even though against the guidelines.

But with the services you added on AYT-IKA, I could not find proofs myself that these services exist. I mainly check four pages then.

1. https://www.flightconnections.com/ (Doesn't show any results)

2. https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airports/ayt/routes (Doesn't show any results)

3. https://www.corendonairlines.com/de (Doesn't show any results)

4. https://www.antalya-airport.aero/ucusharitasi/index.html (Doesn't show any results for Corendon or Pegasus on AYT-IKA, only SunExpress)

Therefore I have to assume that these routes do not exist - or you can show me any source that these flights are real, but four other sources just don't show them.

I hope you can understand my motivation better now.

Brgds,
Der HON (talk) 16:42, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Kavala airport?

Quotation: good morning you delete many destinations from kavalas airport page but the flights will take place - Post by @109.242.187.153.

Good morning, First of all sorry for removing your post in the upper section, but I had to restore the page layout properly. Next time, please use the "New section" button when creating a new topic.

And in regard of Kavala Airport - I just saw that there were enormous unsourced changes over the last 48 Hours, where IP users removed and added information without a single source. This is against WP:Airports. Therefore I just did two major rollbacks, deleting every unsourced change to the last revision where everything was fine.

I believe you that some of the flights could be operating and feel free to add them, but you will have to provide sources in order to not get reverted.

Brgds,
Der HON (talk) 08:14, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Nomination of List of Eurocypria Airlines destinations for deletion

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Kavala airport destinations

The flight from Helsinki is charter and operated every Wednesday from the tour operator aurinko. So stop delete it. You can also check it to the official page of kavalas airport. 109.242.186.51 (talk) 14:26, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

First of all, good morning.

Errors can occure. Feel free to re-add the flight. But as their was a citation needed tag + Kavala is not on the Finnair schedule, I came to the conclusion that it is not operating.

Best regards Der HON (talk) 15:18, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi, I noticed you undid my revisions on Dalaman Airport and your justification was providing sources. However, you need to know that the airlines and destinations subject to my edit are from countries such as Russia and Iran where there are no sources available online to back up the airlines. However, I do not just make up edits and there are certain seasonal and charter flights that are operated in the airport and are not on the Wikipedia page. If you find sources to back them up, I would greatly appreciate it but please do not undo edits thinking you have full control and the final say. Maybe research yourself the flights operated on the airport and come to conlcusion before undoing the edits. I would appreciate that and again I admire your dedication to the making Wikipedia more reliable. Shayan MB24 (talk) 00:18, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Good morning,

I see your point with airlines from Russia and Iran and therefore I already do not revert all the changes on the iranian airport pages that you do, as it is okay for me. But when changing flights within europe, for example Finnair on Helsinki-Dalaman, which you added, attaching a source should be obligatory. When I see an unsourced change, I always do the following:

Check the airport

Check flightradar24

Check flightconnections

Check the airline itself

Here for example, flightconnections did not show any flights + Finnair itself does not show Dalaman as a destination: https://company.finnair.com/en/media-centre/all-releases/news?id=FD1307938F23C504

Therefore one now has to think that the service does not exist. But if you now provide a source showing the opposite, it's great.

I hope that you do understand better now.

Extra for charter flights: There are many charter flights that only operate once, twice or thrice. These are not even mentionable. Means if you show me a flightradar link to one flight I can not see if these are regular charters (okay for Wikipedia) or just one-off (irrelevant). Therefore it is very important to add sources. Der HON (talk) 06:51, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Gothenburg airport

Hello, I have noticed that you have made changes to the Gothenburg Airport Wikipedia page. I would like to point out that some of the changes you have made do not seem to be supported by reliable sources or references. It is important to maintain accuracy and reliability on Wikipedia so that readers can trust the information presented. I would encourage you to feel free to discuss the changes you have made on the article's talk page or to add relevant sources that support the new information. In this way, together we can contribute to maintaining the quality of Wikipedia and ensure that the information is correct and reliable for all readers. Vikingcow (talk) 18:10, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Good morning,

That is totally my point of view, too. Therefore I think that you could have mistaken me with one of the disruptive editors. On the Gothenburg Airport page I only did a rollback to restore the correct airport page before the disruptive IP-editors changed information without any source. As you can see, e.g. the Norwegian flights to AGP and LPA are restored now, which were previously removed without a justification our source.

On another note please do be aware that removing sources is also not okay according to WP:V. When a route starts, just remove the (begins DD.MM.YYYY) and leave the source behind.

Best regards,
Der HON (talk) 08:25, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Hello,

Thank you for your reply. I apologize if I confused you with another contributor. I want to focus on the accuracy and reliability of the information that is added to the Wikipedia pages.

I would like to address a few points regarding the changes you have made to the Gothenburg Airport site. Although you may have done a reset to restore correct information, some of your changes appear to be inconsistent with reliable sources. For example, I have not found confirmation from reputable sources that certain routes, such as SAS flights to Tenerife-South, are operating today. If you have sources that confirm these routes, it would be great to include them so that the information can be supported by reliable sources. Vikingcow (talk) 17:45, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for October 1

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Nuremberg Airport, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Halle.

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User talk:33aircharter

Can you take a look at what User:33aircharter is doing now? That user seems to think that routes already started do not need any sources. And thinks that my edits to restore the sources are malicious. The Banner talk 11:47, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Good evening,
Indeed I have already stumbled accross some of his uncompliant edits. And damn, look at his talk page. Entries reminding him of the importance of source to Wikipedia and also WP:V date back to 2016 and 2017. He is seemingly not willing to improve his editing at all.

I'll take a look at his edit log as soon as I have time for it and check the extense of his "source vandalism".
Der HON (talk) 19:52, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

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December 2023

Are you for real going to ignore me, but continue to correct me? Grow up. Vikingcow (talk) 18:28, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Good evening,

I am definitely not ignoring you. Could you please tell me where I am due answering you? I sincerely have lost overview over a bunch of topics.

I would then immediately proceed to look at the section and come back to you asap.

Tysm,
Der HON (talk) 18:48, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

on my user talk page, Vikingow, of course. You get notifications, don't you? Vikingcow (talk) 09:22, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. Just read through it. The November 2023 topic where I gave you some editing tips seems to have been answered by The Banner in the meantime, or do you need any other info on this topic by me?

And I will get back to you on the December post asap.

P.S. I was actually not notified by Wikipedia that you had answered nor did your answer appear in my watchlist.
Der HON (talk) 09:31, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Ethiopian Airlines service to Warsaw

Hello. An IP continue to add this flight at the Addis Ababa Bole International Airport stating that the flights start on July 10, 2024 but the source provided does not provide a date for it. Jz0610 (talk) 07:10, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Hi there,

Yes, definitely against WP:Airports. I requested page protection for both Warsaw and Addis. Should solve the matter. Der HON (talk) 19:21, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

FYI

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#zamaaero.com. The Banner talk 21:16, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the notification :) Der HON (talk) 22:44, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

minor edits

hey i noticed you marked an edit as minor, however it most definitely was not minor. minor edits are usually only edits that fix typos, add punctuation, etc. if you are ever unsure you can refer to this page -> help:minor edit Gaismagorm (talk) 22:57, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I added "minor edit" because I only adjusted the table to the wikipedia standard as per WP:Airports (standard phrase, spaces). But then I'll just leave it out entirely next time, no problem.
Der HON (talk) 23:04, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

ah my bad, whoops. Gaismagorm (talk) 23:05, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely no problem :) Der HON (talk) 23:10, 6 April 2024 (UTC)