User talk:Mabuska/Archive 42010/October

Hello

Are you a socialist? —Preceding unsigned comment added by SameerJaved (talk • contribs) 01:30, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Are you trying to insinuate that i am a "lefty" and thats why i object to your edits? Are you sectarian against Muslims? Mabuska ^(talk) 16:33, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

No matter anyways your blocked! Mabuska ^(talk) 10:47, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Hiberno-Norman (nobility)

Hi, I saw you ask about this at Irish nobility, basically whether Hiberno-Norman should be Hiberno-Norman nobility or not? It's a difficult question. I'm fairly familiar with Munster, where the greatest concentration of the Hiberno-Normans were found, and there were certainly families which after having entered strongly later fell into obscurity, such as the De Cogans and the Barretts. And then of course the FitzGeralds and Butlers and De Barrys all had septs which fell into obscurity. Some of the noble Barrys even mutated and acquired a Gaelic pedigree. And didn't the Plunketts become O'Briens? I know of a few O'Donovans on a fine estate somewhere who might have started out Burkes. It went the other way too. No one has ever said Munster was not a glorious mess.

Back to your question, I thought about moving the article but now think it is fine. Hiberno-Norman has a very specific meaning and I don't think I have ever seen it used for those who were not recognized nobility, even if not all had English titles. Besides the Barons and later Viscounts, there were two strong Barry septs without English titles, namely Barry Roe and Barry Oge. These were Gaelic titles. The Gaelic Barry Mor eventually became Earl of Barrymore! Although the Earls were actually the Barry Roes. Yes these were actually "Normans" (once) and the cousins of that infamous poisoner-of-minds-against-the-Irish Giraldus Cambrensis (de Barri). DinDraithou (talk) 19:36, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Well i don't think the addition of the term "nobility" does any harm to the statement? Mabuska ^(talk) 09:05, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Probably not, but I think it might be unnecessary and perhaps create confusion, since their situation was unique. Hiberno-Norman by itself refers as much to a class, at least in my experience, so it would be like saying "blue-blooded nobility". DinDraithou (talk) 15:23, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Do you have a source that states such? I don't see how it'd create confusion as simply stating "nobility" at the end of it makes it absolutely clear that that is what its on about. Whilst many Hiberno-Normans may have held titles and the such - not that doesn't mean that all did. Mabuska ^(talk) 17:14, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Though just to clear up any possible misunderstanding - i'm not proposing the creation of an article called "Hiberno-Irish nobility", just that the term "nobility" should be added to the disambig sentence. Mabuska ^(talk) 17:21, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh I see. Nothing wrong at all with it being there. As far as it referring to a class I don't have a specific source, just general familiarity at least with Munster. You're right that some did not hold titles, but probably most of them were still happily landed, qualifying as gentry, who are commonly referred to as untitled nobility. Some were distinguished as the heads of their families and thus in a way were the chiefs of their names. DinDraithou (talk) 17:44, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Thats the thing... is it referring to those with titles granted to them by royalty etc. or including the gentry. To me the term sounds like those with granted titles as opposed to just heads of gentry families. Mabuska ^(talk) 18:44, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Yeah it's kind of difficult. Obviously some families today claim to have had greater sovereignty than they actually enjoyed, simply because they belonged to this class/ethnicity. If the two great FitzGerald branches had not each acquired a quasi royalty for a period we might look at it all differently. The Butlers never achieved more than regional prominence in east Munster, and were there often supported by England, while the Burkes did not achieve full mastery of Connacht and eventually became almost indistinguishable from the Gaels. But of course the Earls of Desmond were for a period virtual overkings of Munster, enjoying the allegiance of the pathetic later kings of Desmond, and the Earl of Kildare enjoyed as his sword bearer the pathetic Conn Bacach O'Neill. But I think a distinction between gentry and nobility is unhelpful and unhistorical, especially in the case of the Burkes. In any case I'm starting to lose interest in the subject. DinDraithou (talk) 19:37, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm really not the best with tone or making proper reference. There's nothing wrong with you! If you read Talk:Gaelic nobility of Ireland my (forced and probably temporary) loss of interest will make more (or less) sense. By the way I am very impressed with your List of Irish clans in Ulster and have planned to get around to some wikilinking in it. Also your maps are very nice and one I have put in Clandeboye and Hugo Ricciardi O'Neill. Before you I was unaware his sept's territory was once so extensive. Are you associated with any particular sept(s) or clann(s) in Ulster? DinDraithou (talk) 10:19, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the compliments. I need to add more detail or comments into the maps - the western portion of the Clandeboye territory, equating to the barony of Loughinsholin, was still under the overlordship of Tyrone but this isn't really highlighted or mentioned - but yeah the Clandeboye O'Neills made the most out of the Bruces Invasion and the collapse of the Earldom of Ulster and also conquered the few remaining local dynasties such as the Ui Tuirtri. The maps need expanding upon when i get the time.

However mention must also be made of Brian Carrach O'Neill, who was of a branch of the Clandeboyes, who ruled what was known as Brian Carrach's Country (equating to the ancient districts of Glenconkeyne and Clandonnell in Loughinsholin), stated as being one of the most impenetrable parts of Ulster due to its dense thick forests (now 99% chopped down). When i get time i'll do an article on him as i have quite a few sources giving details of him.

The List of Irish clans in Ulster isn't completed yet, there is still a lot to add.

Am i associated with ant particular septs or clanns in Ulster? Not directly, my immediate ancestry surname wise would be English and Scottish, however my great-granny was of the once mighty Laverty's, whilst my granny, is a Magill, a Scots-Gaelic sept. HOw about yourself? Could i make a presumptive guess and say O'Neill? Mabuska ^(talk) 11:34, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually my genuine Irish ancestry is all Mumu (Munster), until the 13th century County Limerick (Uí Fidgenti/Chairpre), with some Gaill (Norse) of Limerick thrown in, and after that southwest Cork (Carbery). But through a FitzGerald married to a MacCarthy and a MacCarthy married to an O'Donovan I happen to be a supremely distant and accidental cousin of the last kings of Tyrone, Conn, Shane, and all the rest, even Hugh assuming his father was actually an O'Neill. Also the O'Donovans were one of the only three or four or five Munster families, depending on who you count, to submit to Hugh when he came down for a visit during a certain war, and got in immense trouble for it. See Donal II O'Donovan, who I'm still working on, if you're interested. To scholars of Gaelic Ireland he is actually most notable for his brother filing a unique and uniquely preserved lawsuit against him.

The Clandeboye O'Neills are mostly interesting to me because their Prince and his family have been making unhistorical claims to the throne of Ulster, although they look like perfectly excellent people. This in part derives from the daughters of the last Count of Tyrone somewhat illegally bestowing the Tyrone title on the Clandeboyes in the early 20th century. But now there is a new Vatican created Count of Tyrone who is a descendant of Conn and thus my extremely distant cousin, so I feel like I should be defending his rights. No one seems to know the position of the Fews sept. I wonder however if the O'Donnells think they (the O'Donnells) also have a claim. DinDraithou (talk) 17:55, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

If i've learnt anything from Irish history and in particular the O'Neills, i'd be amazed if you didn't want to seize the title for yourself lol ;-)

Wierdly enough is the kingship even suppossed to be passed along like that with the daughters deciding who to bestow the crown to? Especially even keeping it within the O'Neills extended family. Is that not against the Brehon Laws or something? Afterall formerly before the O'Neills seized control of the kingship of Tyrone for themselves and declared themselves kings of Ulster, it was the taniste, elected by all the associated clans, who was the heir - and that wasn't always an O'Neill. Or maybe i'm misinterpreting/misreading my history lol. I might too have a claim seeing as i descend from the O'Lavertys whose last taniste somehow died before he could assume the lordship/kingshop with an O'Neill taking his place (iirc). All i need to do is somehow prove my lineage lol :-P Mabuska ^(talk)

Proving your lineage is easier than you might think. There are lots and lots of sources and you just need to be determined enough, or employ professionals with the right degrees. This won't guarantee a lineage or pedigree but can at least potentially "associate" your ancestors with one. Some families are better documented than others or had research done at critical times. For example, the O'Donovans are virtually undocumented until the second half of the 16th century, but got noticed by Sir George Carew for their activities, who actually did a pedigree for us (among other families) so we would be easier to keep track of and sort out if necessary. And he was an interested antiquary. Then we appear plenty of times in the fiants. Later in the 19th century a number of septs were still landed and so we appear in Burke's from the beginning of the publication. And then we got John O'Donovan and he did a good if not perfect pedigree for us, and then John O'Hart preserved some important material as well. So we are extremely lucky and are one of the very best documented of all Gaelic families of the past five centuries.

My American O'Donovans came from a minor discard sept of absolutely no importance (although of the main Clancahill dynasty) but our pedigree was still easy enough to do. There is not the slightest thing noble about me and yet I get to be a real descendant of kings and other notables. In fact I'm quite poor, live in a rural area, and drink a lot of very cheap beer (Natural Ice) for entertainment.

As far as claims, Irish culture does not recognize female line claimants to titles or lordships. Even if you find your pedigree you will have claims to nothing. I also have a female line pedigree. Recently I tried to engage in an email conversation with a noble cousin in Ireland but he eventually disregarded me. The subject was purely academic but he wanted nothing to do with me. DinDraithou (talk) 16:48, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

He probably thought you were trying to use him as your claim to fame lol. Oh i know the female line means i've no right by Brehon Law to claim. Though my Laverty (male line) relatives are still going even though they are now situated in Belfast and Beverley Hills (yep, in California), and i would still feel proud if i could find a pedigree for them seeing asno matter what customs state i still have some of their DNA :-) In fact the American ones based in Beverley Hills seem to have made a bigger name for themselves than their ancestors, with one even serving two-terms as governor of Nevada; Jan Laverty Jones, she helped turn Las Vegas from a seedy tramphole to the more family-orientated place it is today.

I know a good bit of the ancient pedigree of the Lavertys until they lose their status as a clan as powerful as the O'Neills and McLaughlins. However i can only trace my direct Laverty ancestors back to the early 1800s, however there are a plathorea of Church of Ireland Lavertys in my parish at that time all around the same area. I know of one O'Laverty given as a lord in Tyrone in some state papers and as my area was then part of Tyrone we could possibly be a branch but unless i can find direct links or Laverty lords/chiefs in my general area its doubtful if i could circumstantially prove anything. There are still Roman Catholic Lavertys in neighbouring parishes and we may all no doubt be of the same branch and that may mean there may have been a junior branch or something settle in the general area at one stage.

I have a couple of John O'Donovans works, including his memoirs whilst in County Londonderry. Very smart man though prone to mistakes especially in his Irish translations. A lot of local history of my area and neighbouring areas he helped preserve in his writings and works. Mabuska ^(talk) 14:00, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Pedigrees (cont.)

I was going to respond but your bot has now archived the discussion.

I understand about finding it for your cousins. Part of what I've been doing here with all of these O'Donovan and related articles is trying to inspire the family and others with the surname. After an interesting 19th century they have really become quite dull and uneducated about their history. Part of this is that the family have a different history and lineage from the Eoganachta proper and from the other major group in Munster, the Dal Cais. So this means the O'Donovans are 100% responsible for promoting themselves because the other families and popular writers just aren't interested. Only academics know who they are today, no matter how well-to-do one or another member might be.

So I hope you can find more on the O'Lavertys. If you can't find a pedigree then focusing on the ancient lineage of the family and medieval times can't hurt. I see one listed in Kings of Tír Eógain so you could do an article on him. Also I am unable to determine from what I can find here in Wikipedia where it is that the Ui Flaithbertaig belong to the Cenél nEógain. Presumably one of the 10th-11th century Kings of Ailech? You have Flaithbheartach mac Murchadh under Clann Domhnaill, but should it really be mac Muirchertaig? Also see O'Flaherty for the West Connacht family. Oh and bright ruler is not correct and should be bright prince. A flaith simply belonged to the hereditary nobility in general, whereas a ruler was a Rí, a specific office a flaith might have. I have been meaning to create the article for some time now and will eventually get around to it. DinDraithou (talk) 20:34, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I already know a good bit of the ancient pedigree, from their alleged descent from High King Áed Allán if i remember correctly. Indeed the Laverty's are part of the Clann Domhnaill of the Cenél nEógain. The information in that article about them and spellings is going by the source i used for the article. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:54, 29 October 2010 (UTC)