User talk:Marokwitz/Archives/2011/September
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I'd appreciate any help you would be able to provide in improving this important article. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 03:00, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
Zvi Ofer incident
Are you familiar with this incident? Do you think it was notable enough to be included in that article? Please share your knowledge on the matter in the discussion page. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 12:00, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
Thank you
Thank you for the the support plus more information about Ofer - I only know about him from reading the Teveth book. He does need an article. I am getting used to my entries to the "in Israel" series being knocked back. Do you think Yehoshua Ben-Zion (1975 in Israel) should have been removed? Padres Hana (talk) 19:19, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
Need your help
Thanks for the Barnstar! Would it be possible to chat with you through the official English Wikipedia IRC chat room sometime soon? TheCuriousGnome (talk) 14:27, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- You deserve it - keep up the good work. I'm not much of a chatter, and prefer communicating through this talk page, if that's OK. Marokwitz (talk) 07:01, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- There is still much work to be done on this series of articles and I desperately need assistance. I was hoping you would be able and willing to help me improve and expand the content of these important articles. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 16:23, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- I'll do my best to work on this series. Marokwitz (talk) 17:15, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 17:27, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- I'll do my best to work on this series. Marokwitz (talk) 17:15, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- There is still much work to be done on this series of articles and I desperately need assistance. I was hoping you would be able and willing to help me improve and expand the content of these important articles. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 16:23, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
Question
Should we include myths too in the terror attacks articles?
I found the following sourced text in the Coastal Road massacre article:
- "According to some reports, Ehud Barak, the current Israeli Defense Minister, led the military operation against Mughrabi, and there are reports of images of him firing shots into her dead body as it lay on the road."
What do you think? TheCuriousGnome (talk) 23:39, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
- In in 1978 he was in Stanford University. Nevertheless it is reported in several sources that Barak and Sayeret Matkal were involved in the operation, so it is somewhat plausible. The part about "repeatedly shooting her dead body" sounds like an outrageous claim, mentioned in passing by ONE reporter published in two sources (Hugh Macleod, a british journalist living and working in Syria and Lebanon), we need to be very careful with sourcing on BLP topics. I think the right thing to do would be to try to find sources that refute or respond to this claim, or take this issue to RSN. 07:51, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
- After doing some more research, there is definitely a case for RSN here. In the two sources mentioning this claim, Hugh Macleod wrote the hijacked buses were filled with soldiers, which is wrong. In SF Gate this was left unmodified, while in The Guardian there is a note "This article was amended on Thursday July 17 2008. Mughrabi's team hijacked two buses full of civilians, not Israeli soldiers as we originally said." This article is based on false facts. Marokwitz (talk) 08:44, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for helping to improve the article. I am very bothered by the fact that false and unfounded claims which originate in anti-Israeli news outlets/reporters would be included in these Wikipedia articles. In many cases some of these Palestinian/Lebanese/Egyptian myths were created to justify brutal massacres committed by their militia men against random Israeli civilians – I recently heard that a Lebanese newspaper claimed that one of the victims of a very famous 1970s massacre in Israel was a nuclear scientist! (this is an unfounded lie intended to justify his murder and his 4 year old daughter murder by a brutal militant squad). Just to illustrate how disrespectful and offensive this is to me - In my opinion this is equivalent to adding a whole section to the 9/11 article in which we would quote unfounded/false claimed made by Afghanistan news outlets/reporters about the attack. Are we obligated to keep unfounded claims in these articles? Isn't there any Wikipedia policy which deals with such sensitive situations like these? TheCuriousGnome (talk) 12:30, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
- I share your concern. Reliable sources do make errors and it is the job of Wikipedia editors to reject inclusion of factual errors. This is apparently a case in which some sources which are generally considered reliable, such as The Guardian, picked up erroneous information and presented it as fact, due to poor fact checking. The solution in my opinion is first to attempt resolve the problem by consensus building in the article talk page, and if this doesn't work, we should go to WP:RSN, due to the existence of clear factual errors (such as the outrageous claim that the hijacked buses were carrying soldiers, not civilians) it should be easy to prove the two articles by Hugh Macleod are not reliable. Marokwitz (talk) 13:02, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks again for your help. I really appreciate it. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 14:08, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
- I share your concern. Reliable sources do make errors and it is the job of Wikipedia editors to reject inclusion of factual errors. This is apparently a case in which some sources which are generally considered reliable, such as The Guardian, picked up erroneous information and presented it as fact, due to poor fact checking. The solution in my opinion is first to attempt resolve the problem by consensus building in the article talk page, and if this doesn't work, we should go to WP:RSN, due to the existence of clear factual errors (such as the outrageous claim that the hijacked buses were carrying soldiers, not civilians) it should be easy to prove the two articles by Hugh Macleod are not reliable. Marokwitz (talk) 13:02, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for helping to improve the article. I am very bothered by the fact that false and unfounded claims which originate in anti-Israeli news outlets/reporters would be included in these Wikipedia articles. In many cases some of these Palestinian/Lebanese/Egyptian myths were created to justify brutal massacres committed by their militia men against random Israeli civilians – I recently heard that a Lebanese newspaper claimed that one of the victims of a very famous 1970s massacre in Israel was a nuclear scientist! (this is an unfounded lie intended to justify his murder and his 4 year old daughter murder by a brutal militant squad). Just to illustrate how disrespectful and offensive this is to me - In my opinion this is equivalent to adding a whole section to the 9/11 article in which we would quote unfounded/false claimed made by Afghanistan news outlets/reporters about the attack. Are we obligated to keep unfounded claims in these articles? Isn't there any Wikipedia policy which deals with such sensitive situations like these? TheCuriousGnome (talk) 12:30, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
- After doing some more research, there is definitely a case for RSN here. In the two sources mentioning this claim, Hugh Macleod wrote the hijacked buses were filled with soldiers, which is wrong. In SF Gate this was left unmodified, while in The Guardian there is a note "This article was amended on Thursday July 17 2008. Mughrabi's team hijacked two buses full of civilians, not Israeli soldiers as we originally said." This article is based on false facts. Marokwitz (talk) 08:44, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
- In in 1978 he was in Stanford University. Nevertheless it is reported in several sources that Barak and Sayeret Matkal were involved in the operation, so it is somewhat plausible. The part about "repeatedly shooting her dead body" sounds like an outrageous claim, mentioned in passing by ONE reporter published in two sources (Hugh Macleod, a british journalist living and working in Syria and Lebanon), we need to be very careful with sourcing on BLP topics. I think the right thing to do would be to try to find sources that refute or respond to this claim, or take this issue to RSN. 07:51, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
Prominent terror attacks in the 1960s?
Where there only four prominent terror attacks in the 1960s carried out against Israeli targets (the ones in this template) or are we missing a couple? If you know of any not mentioned in the template, please let me know. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 17:20, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
- See List of attacks against Israeli civilians before 1967#Border conflict, 1957-1967. I'm not sure which are notable though. Perhaps the first attack by Fatah, an attempt to sabotage the National Water Carrier in 1965. Marokwitz (talk) 20:11, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
- As far as I know there were no major ones other than those four. I was hoping you had any knowledge which I didn't have about this matter. The first attack by Fatah is only notable because it was their first one. It failed to achieve any substantial damage and therefore I believe it shouldn't be mentioned in the template. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 20:17, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
Can you take a look?
I recently created the following articles:
Please help improve these important articles as much as you can. Have a good day. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 09:13, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
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Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Skier Dude (talk) 04:26, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
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Thanks for uploading File:Activistboatclash.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).
Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Skier Dude (talk) 04:39, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
Are you familiar with this evet?
"January 6 - Beit Jalla and Rachel's Tomb: An Israeli raiding party, estimated 45 in number, blow up several houses. Killing a 23-year-old and his wife in Beit Jalla, at Rachel's Tomb another woman and her four children are killed. An 8-month-pregnant woman is also shot losing her baby. Leaflets in Arabic are left stating the raid was in revenge for the rape-murder of a young Israeli on 4 December 1951."
The user Padres Hana added some serious allegations. Unfortunately, I could not find any online sources to back up these claims. Are you familiar with this event by any chance ? TheCuriousGnome (talk) 00:29, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
- There is an article here - 1952 Beit Jala Raid. Marokwitz (talk) 04:38, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
From what I read there is no unequivocal proof indicating that an Israeli military force conducted the attack. Therefore I changed the text to the following segment:
"January 6 - 1952 Beit Jala Raid: an attack committed by an unknown Israeli party who blew up several houses in Beit Jala, killing seven Palestinian-Arabs. According to leaflets distributed in the scene of the crime, the attack was carried out in retaliation for the rape and murder of a Jewish girl on 4 December 1951."
What do you think? TheCuriousGnome (talk) 06:10, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
- Sounds accurate, I think. Take a look at Israel's border wars, 1949-1956, By Benny Morris, p. 215-217, who says Israel denied IDF involvement and condemned the raid, and in p.217 he says that there is uncertainty about the identity of the perpetrators. Marokwitz (talk) 07:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for the help. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 12:12, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
Are you familiar with the following events?
During the last day the user Pardes Hanna user added a few more historical events I haven't been able to verify:
- The article 1949 in Israel
"20 March - Fifty Israeli soldiers order 1,800 civilians to leave the village of Beit 'Awwa. UN report 7,000 people driven out of area west of Dura."
"31 March - Israeli command car ambushed near Al Qubeiba. All four occupants are killed."
"September - Ar Reina.IDF troops execute fourteen bedouin and one woman suspected of smuggling."
"November - 2,000 bedouin expelled from Beersheba area to West Bank."
- The article 1950 in Israel
"31 March - Three Israeli soldiers and two Israeli civilians killed in a Negev ambush."
"Summer/autumn - 2,000-2,500 residents transferred from Majdal to Gaza Strip."
- The article 1951 in Israel
"6 February - An Israeli platoon attack Sharafat killing nine, including 3 women and five children."
"20 October - Eastern suburbs of Gaza City attacked by two companies from the 7th Brigade. Dozens killed and injured."
- The article 1952 in Israel
"July 14 - Five Israeli watchmen killed by bedouin at Timna."
"January 6 - Fifteen bedouin killed by an Israeli armoured infantry attack on their camp near Bureij Refugee Camp."
- The article 1953 in Israel
"February/March - 12 to 15 infiltrators from the Gaza Strip killed when they trigger a 50kg TNT booby-trap whilst trying to steal water pipelines near Yad Mordechai."
"April 22 - IDF snipers in West Jerusalem open fire across the armistice line killing six."
"August 28 - Unit 101's first combat operation. An attack on Bureij refugee camp kills 20 refugees including 7 women and five children."
Please examine these latest additions, verify that they actually took place, improve the wording if necessary and/or add additional reliable sources corroborating these claims. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 15:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
Do you think the name "Palestinians rabbis" is the best name for this article? I know you have a lot of information on this topic. Please share your knowledge on the matter here. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 16:41, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
Please help me expand and improve this important article. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 18:00, 30 September 2011 (UTC)