User talk:Martindo

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Hello, Martindo, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{helpme}} before the question. Again, welcome! SatuSuro 00:17, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Off on the wrong foot[edit]

Hi. In retrospect I was overhasty in my wholesale reversions of your edits, for which I apologize. In your well-considered responses to my responses you make some good points, and I thank you for your remark about my dedication. The Indonesia Project sorely needs editors with the patience, diligence and local knowledge to improve coverage of Indonesian issues and I hope that you will continue to edit and create articles. Regards Davidelit (talk) 15:08, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind words and recognition. I can see that you and the others are very dedicated. And I know (admit) from my own experience that one can get possessive about knowledge being presented accurately. I, in turn, apologize to you for my early accusations of bias. Martindo (talk) 05:35, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


Hi, do you have a ref for "Wiranto was praised by many...". At the time of the 1998 riots, he ran away to Malang to take part in a military parade! Regards Davidelit (talk) 13:51, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Which riots are you referring to? Anti-Chinese? I don't have a reference but recall reading several media articles then, perhaps even Time or Newsweek. I'll dig around. I admit that this is unverified info, but it summarizes some of the info later on his page, so I thought it would be useful in the lead in order to balance the harsh criticism. Notice that I hedge by saying "turbulent times" rather than "the month of May 1998". Martindo (talk) 23:37, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I removed the "many" and added a couple sentences of explanation, based on Asia Times articles. In particular April 27, 2004 describes Wiranto and SBY "teaming" up to resist temptation to impose military rule in 1998. For info on Wiranto's positive reputation during that time, it would be necessary to find articles predating the East Timor massacre. Unfortunately, Asia Times does not archive before Jan 1, 1999. Statfor may have an analysis about Wiranto's role in "stabilizing". Martindo (talk) 00:33, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Obama campaign similarities[edit]

Hi Martindo! I saw you removed the screenshots of Yudhoyono's and Obama's web sites from Indonesian presidential election, 2009. I understand you were concerned of a possible POV. Perhaps, considering there is not much content on th other candidates, it could be considered POV since I'm only adding material about one candidate. However, such addition I think is important to the direction of the article. The source I cited [1] (including others from Indonesian sources, e.g. [2]) states that the similiarity is apparent, including the campaign logo. It also notes that the director of Yudhoyono's PR committee admits as much. It's not only Yudhoyono as well. Kalla's campaign web site [3] also has elements similar to the White House web site [4] (i.e. the four-image/story rotation. It's more than just Yudhoyono's campaign.

Sorry for the long and convoluted explanation. I've been working on compiling useful photos for the presidents and recent elections in the Commons, so I haven't had much time to develop the article fully after finishing the coalition section. I'd rather wait until the first round is over to write about the individual campaigns, but I wanted to get it up there before the web site changed in any way. My attention has been focused on expanding the Indonesian presidential election, 2004 first. Cheers! Arsonal (talk) 06:35, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

It seems they are all jumping on the bandwagon, so highlighting only one candidate might give the impression that SBY is somehow closer to BHO. In fact, SBY's campaign slogan is "lanjutkan" -- continue, not change -- which is the opposite of BHO's campaign. Personally, I think the similarity is crude imitation but it's weird in light of the disparity of slogans. You are right: focusing on only one candidate is the problem. If you've been in Indonesia the past few months, you may have seen the Prabowo ads on TV (when he was still running for the top spot) which included 5-10 seconds of BHO victory speech, giving the misleading impression that he was endorsing Prabowo. Portraying this type of "linkage" is like walking on thin ice, there is huge risk of favoritism or even perpetuation of false impressions. Martindo (talk) 19:10, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

On second thought, a new section called Campaign Tactics would be a good place to show web sites of *all three* candidates. A short explanation of the similarity and imitation of BHO web site would be helpful -- lots of web designers use similar style so "similarity" could be in the eye of the beholder without clear guidance. If you create such a section, I recommend that you put the images toward the bottom of the page, not in the special column to the right. Martindo (talk) 00:50, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the notes. I will expand information on the candidates' campaigns (as I currently plan on doing for the 2004 election page) when I finally get some time. The images actually weren't in a special column. It just appeared that way due to the current lack on prose. Cheers! Arsonal (talk) 08:26, 27 June 2009 (UTC)


I for one find it hard to know who someone is with a blank user page - you are referring to books that I have had the pleasure of only very very quick reviews in the ANU or Nat Lib in Canberra - so who or what you are does in some substance affect how I reply.

Have you read either Stephen Headley (Durga's Mosque) or Martin van Bruinessen (Sharia, tarekat and pesantren religious institutions in the sultanate of Banten)?

Headley others and I had our signatures in the Yogya kraton library attendance book many many many moons ago - and he is like the great american tradition chose solo (Florida, Pemberton, Siegel, and others) - and I do not by any stretch of the imagination suggest there is any problem with the amazing amount of good work they have done - but I would never allow any one ethnographic or academic study to predicate any generalisation that I have ever ventured in the area of encyclopedia entries - the fixation of a whole generation of american and australian indonesian studies students on geertzs ideas was close to a tragedy I think, and a good example why martin or stephen (both great guys) are not the answer but only part of it.

I would like to add that "wali" literally means "guardian" or "proxy" (Echols-Shadily) and only loosely means "saint". For example, Indonesian public schools have a "wali murid" and Muslim weddings have a wali for the bride.

Anyone who ever utilises one dictionary is out for me full stop, sorry. Also any claim for a way of translating meaning from a single source is simply not my area - sorry. Appropriation of a word in current usage has nothing to do with the earlier usages.

Finally (for now), what are your thoughts on modifying the title to Wali Songo, rather than the more traditional Javanese transliteration "sanga"? The "songo" spelling is less obscure and more likely to be input by users of WP. Martindo (talk) 8:30 am, Today (UTC+8)

Retrieved from ""

I simply do not have time to reply to the spelling issue - put a redirect for variant spelling and leave it at that - if you really want to have a 3 page essay on spelling, usage and - you will have to wait till January 2010 - cheers Otherwise stay clear of trying to change spellings - if you dont understand where I am coming from - try looking at the edit history for the word Java over the last 4 years - weikipedia is inhabited by editors and readers challenged in many ways - I do not want to and do not have the time to explain why making a redirect is the simplest and easiest resoltuion to your problem SatuSuro 02:48, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

FYI, Headley is French, despite his British or American sounding surname. I have had direct correspondence with him about his book. A neutral observer looking at the references for the Wali Songo and some other pages would immediately see that Ricklefs is predominant, so I don't understand how adding 1 or 2 additional sources is "relying on a single source" -- that reliance is the current state of affairs, IMO!

In regard to "wali", I merely corrected the Wali Songo page to match the Arabic definition given on the WP page of "wali" so how is that relying on "one dictionary"? Martindo (talk) 05:08, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

As my watch list is going from 9000 to 100 over the next couple of days and as time seriously runs out I am in neither the time head place or place for extended conversation about all this - there are issues I could expand on greatly - but not now - apologies - mohon maaf, but please do not change the wali material too signifcantly without going to the cumbersome Indonesia project noticeboard !!!!SatuSuro 03:03, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate that you have done much in this overall project. It appears that you are the originator/progenitor of numerous pages. However, when I see a page that was flagged as "needs cleanup" 2 or 3 years ago, I wonder about being deflected to the "cumbersome Indonesia project noticeboard". In particular, a careful reading of the 8 pages for the individual Wali Songo "members" reveals contradictions in family relationships. Cleanup is sorely needed. I will approach it carefully and accept your feedback. Everything moves at its own time, as Javanese know very well. Martindo (talk) 05:05, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Wali Sanga[edit]

110 days away from quiet Perth, Western Australia is proving to be a nightmare as money dissapears before I get it for various bookings and so on - so I am off wiki as from now - funny will be passing through new york but no indonesia this time :) - my argument about wali sanga is there is no easy outsiders 'tidy up' of relationships and numbers - the very nature of sandi sandi stuff in javanese traditions is they are never gonna tell you the 'truth' whether you want it or not - inherently there are contradictions in numbers and details - its part of the course - and as to who they are and where they come from and etc it is like my relationships with the kratons - not that I am a published or even adequately sitting in academic circles or patronage. But hey - please feel free to cleanup stuff - if you get too neat and tidy in the wali sanga stuff - then you are wrong :) - will try to email you as well - cheers and have fun SatuSuro 07:15, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Wali Sanga[edit]

Thank you for leaving me a comment. To request page protection go to Wikipedia:RPP and follow the instructions there.

Happy editing!

mjwilson (Talk/Contrib) 12:01, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Re: Another protection request[edit]

I declined your protection request because there hadn't been enough disruptive activity in the article's history to justify its protection ([5] - while there is no archive per se, you can search for old requests using RFPP's history page). Typically, regular vandalism over an extended period of time is necessary in order for an article to be protected - a few incidents of vandalism over several months (as in this article) isn't enough. Remember that you can easily keep track of edits (including vandalism) to an article by using the Watch button and your watchlist, or you can encourage others to add the article to their watchlists. If the rate of vandalism of this article increases or you wish to protect another page, feel free to submit another protection request. --Aqwis (talk) 23:41, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

GA Sweeps[edit]

Thanks for contacting me. The GA Sweeps process has been going on since 2007 to review over 2,800 GAs (we have about 400 left), to ensure that they meet the GA criteria. At the time I reviewed the article, I believed that it met the criteria and left it listed as a GA. Wikipedia articles change from day-to-day, especially for popular articles such as this one. The article may have changed significantly since I reviewed it, so if you believe that the article no longer meets the criteria, then I'd recommend leaving your comments on the talk page for the main editors to address. If there is no progress or if there are too many issues, then you can nominate the article at Good article reassessment where editor consensus will determine if it should be kept/delisted as a GA. If you have any questions or need clarification, let me know. --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 (talkcontrib) 04:45, 1 October 2009 (UTC)


Thanks for both the constructive criticism and the compliment. Regards. Badmintonhist (talk) 19:17, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

HIV dissent [edit]

Hello Martindo. I have created a new article entitles HIV dissent which used to forwrd to AIDS denialism. Would like to get your thoughts, opinions, edits, etc. I would like this new article to refrain from including information on AIDS, other than in passing, as HIV and AIDS are not the same beast. What I envision is an article that contains scientific information regarding the questions surrounding HIV, isolation, testing, etc. Hope to see you there. Neuromancer (talk) 04:48, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

The current talk pages are Talk:HIV dissent and Talk:AIDS denialism. Your comments are welcome at both. Neuromancer (talk) 06:32, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
It looked at first like this was going nowhere and now I see that you're being edged out of Wikipedia. Will I get a similar threat, I wonder? Ran afoul of "Keep Calm" on the Talk page for Russell Blaylock. Read the discussions there if you have time. It's interesting to see the accusation "you have an agenda" being spewed by people who appear to have an agenda! Martindo (talk) 22:23, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

About moral panic[edit]

Since Eric Oliver, a political science assistant professor of University of Chicago and Samantha Kwan, an assistant professor of sociology and a women’s studies faculty affiliate at the University of Houston have all claimed that the so-called obesity problem has exaggerated (since many "medical" professionals use inaccurate body mass index to define obesity), thus called people's concern over obesity and over-weight a moral panic, and their viewpoint have been presented in various reputable news media, I added these views on the moral panic article. This does not mean I fully agree with them (Ancient Greeks, including Hippocrates regarded obesity a health problem).--RekishiEJ (talk) 17:07, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Fact and tendency, my curiosity[edit]

I do not object to your edit here, but what do you mean by it? I only ask out of curiosity, mainly because I often see the words "fact" and "tendency" put together like that (such as when a person says, "It it is a fact that men tend to..."). Flyer22 (talk) 13:20, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I replied on my talk page (as the top of my talk page says I will, LOL). Flyer22 (talk) 20:56, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

November 2009[edit]

Information.svg Welcome to Wikipedia. It might not have been your intention, but your recent edit removed content from Russell Blaylock. When removing text, please specify a reason in the edit summary and discuss edits that are likely to be controversial on the article's talk page. If this was a mistake, don't worry; the text has been restored, as you can see from the page history. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia, and if you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Thank you. Verbal chat 19:13, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

This is snide. Somehow I made a mistake and deleted content! I'm not even clear what you're referring to, because I deleted a big chunk of the "political beliefs" screed from that page after the editor who uploaded it openly admitted in her own post to Talk that it was too long. So, (a) it was discussed on Talk, and (b) it was not reverted.
Funny, but the strongest criticisms I've received (see Davidelit and SatuSuro above) were resolved because they came from sincere editors who were specific. It seems odd that someone questioning my intellectual competence is not intelligent enough (PhD notwithstanding) to be specific here. Martindo (talk) 12:48, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
Nah let it ride - this place is a zoo at times - - is a good indication where there are issues that stretch over into whole project issues that some dont seem to see beyond the talk page and text between immediate editors - the intellectual competence issue has no adequate standing in wikipedia - one has only to see the brawls at higher levels within wikipedia - zoo animals are in some cases better apt at coping with some of the hijinks here SatuSuro 01:24, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
As for Zoo employees.... --Merbabu (talk) 13:00, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Oh hell - one of the more respected editors on the indonesian project takes it personally (btw he works in a zoo...) - well I will clarify this - those monkeys I encountered in the grounds at the Taj Mahal two weeks ago are more competent at coherent behaviour than some of the editors I have 'watched' in some situations - and it doesnt include merbabu btw SatuSuro 13:36, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Language box[edit]

I don't know if you know if you've noticed I replied to your message at my talk page. So if you didn't know since I really don't use the TB template, here's the what you need to copy and paste to your userpage:

| backgroundcolor = substitute with any color you want
| bordercolor = substitute with any color you want
{{User en}}
{{User ilo-4}}

Where it says "en" and "ilo", replace those with the language codes that you want to add. For proficiency add a dash ( - ) by the language code and the proficiency level (it goes from 0-5, 0 being least proficient and 5 most proficient). Not adding a proficiency level is treated as a native speaker of that language. I hope you didn't think I was ignoring you. Elockid (Talk·Contribs) 00:31, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Aaron Burr, Sr.[edit]

If you read my edit, it's clear that I didn't introduce the information. I only split the information out of the main Aaron Burr article. Here's the original edit:

Daniel Quinlan (talk) 16:19, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi. If you are expecting me to remember something I did in 2003, I'm afraid you are likely to be disappointed :-) Also, the wikipedia rules on referencing have changed hugely since then. It seems most likely to me that I merely copied over information from the article on Princeton and took it at face value. I'm afraid that, nearly 9 years on, I wouldn't even have recognised the name of Aaron Burr. Deb (talk) 22:48, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Original Barnstar Hires.png The Original Barnstar
You've been here for years, and always doing good work. This Barnstar is long overdue!

--LK (talk) 10:04, 24 September 2012 (UTC)


no time etc - but will check later - thanks... satusuro 11:38, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open![edit]

You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:50, 24 November 2015 (UTC)