User talk:Rangers00

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December 2023

Hello, I'm Bagumba. I noticed that you added or changed content in an article, 2000–01 Los Angeles Lakers season, but you didn't provide a reliable source. It's been removed and archived in the page history for now, but if you'd like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so. You can have a look at referencing for beginners. If you think I made a mistake, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. —Bagumba (talk) 04:24, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, why can't simple arithmetic be a reliable source?

The Lakers' 23-1 finish (regular season + playoffs) is never mentioned anywhere (I followed the NBA for 40+ years). It's something I observed. The reason is simple. It can only happen when a team losing only 0 or 1 game in the playoffs.

In the NBA, there has never been a team losing 0 game in the playoff. There were 3 teams losing 1 game in the playoffs.

1983 76ers (12-1 in the playoffs, lost their last game in the regular season, thus they finished 12-1)

2017 Warriors (16-1 in the playoffs, lost their penultimate game in the regular season, thus they finished 17-1)

2021 Lakers (15-1 in the playoffs, won their last 8 games in the regular season, thus they finished 23-1).

In other words, this 23-1 finish, a simple FACT, is NEVER observed by any fans/journalist in the NBA. Rangers00 (talk) 06:50, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not add original research or novel syntheses of published material to articles as you apparently did to 2000–01 Los Angeles Lakers season. Please cite a reliable source for all of your contributions. Thank you. —Bagumba (talk) 17:08, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What is novel synthesis? The Lakers 23-1 finish in a season, best ever in NBA history, is a FACT!!! It's not original research. I explain how this FACT come from. Rangers00 (talk) 14:33, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop. If you continue to violate Wikipedia's no original research policy by adding your personal analysis or synthesis into articles, as you did at 2000–01 Los Angeles Lakers season, you may be blocked from editing. —Bagumba (talk) 14:38, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't restore unsourced material. Feel free to establish consensus for your additions at the article's talk page. Thanks. —Bagumba (talk) 14:40, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please note that in your quoted "no original research policy", it's stated:

Routine calculations

Routine calculations do not count as original research, provided there is consensus among editors that the results of the calculations are correct, and a meaningful reflection of the sources.

Do you have objections if I add this:

"Legacy

By winning the final eight games of the regular season and achieving a postseason record of 15-1, the Lakers finished the 2020-21 season with a 23-1 record"?

Now both "won their final eight games" and "had achieved the best ever NBA postseason record of 15-1" are explicitly stated on the page, in the first paragraph and in the "NBA Finals" section, respectively. My conclusion of 23-1 is just a routine calculation, which is not count as original research.

I'll try to establish "consensus" later on. Rangers00 (talk) 15:24, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there. Unless a reliable source is cited, it's WP:OR to consider a "best finish" to be a combination or regular season and playoffs. Statsmuse is an AI front for a stats database, so it's not considered a reliable secondary source. Those other team's records were also uncited. Regards. —Bagumba (talk) 15:49, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I propose to say

"Legacy

By winning the final eight games of the regular season and achieving a postseason record of 15-1, the Lakers finished the 2020-21 season with a 23-1 record"

Both of these facts are mentioned in the page itself. I am not mentioning "best finish".

Is it OK? Rangers00 (talk) 16:39, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, I'd only put 23–1 if another reliable secondary source thought it was significant enough to remember. But it's not the end of the world if you insist on it being there as a "simple calculation". However, comparisons to other teams require reliable sources making the explicit comparison to this Lakers team. It's not a standard record that editors should solely rely on database searches for. —Bagumba (talk) 02:21, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

First, I didn't know about Wikipedia's "no original research policy", so I thought you were just another Wiki user making trouble. My apologies.

When I looked at many Wikipedia pages, say, of the NBA, there were numerous claims without citations. Please take a look at the 20XX NBA Playoffs pages. For example, in the Overview section of the 2020 NBA Playoff page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_NBA_playoffs):

Lebron James became the first player with 20+ points, 15+ rebounds, and 15+ assist in a playoff game*.
Luguentz Dort became the youngest player and first undrafted player to score 30+ points in a Game 7.
Donovan Mitchell and Jamal Murray joined Michael Jordan and Allen Iverson as the only players to have multiple 50–point games in a single playoff series.
Anthony Davis joined Kevin Durant, Michael Jordan, Rick Barry, and Hal Greer as the only players in NBA History to score 30+ points in their first two career NBA Finals games.

No citation. These claims have historical perspective as these are comparisons with all other players in NBA history. How do we verify these facts? In other words, unless there is a source listing out the point tallies of their first two Finals games for all the players in NBA history, we won't know, as a fact, that only Durant, MJ, Barry and Greer were the 4 players who scored 30+ in their first 2 final games.

Furthermore, look at the claims on teams:

Despite all the games being in the same location, the Celtics–Raptors series was the first series in NBA history where the (designated) road team won every game of a best–of–seven series.
This was the first time that the top two seeds in a conference (the Milwaukee Bucks and the Toronto Raptors in the Eastern Conference) were both down 0–2 in a best of 7 series.
This was the first time that neither the first seed nor the second seed were in the Eastern Conference finals. By coincidence, this would happen again the very next year.

Again, no citation. And these are comparisons with all other teams in NBA playoff history, so someone doing their own research is not allowed.

Every year's playoff page has some "fun facts" without citation. If citation is mandatory and original "research" is not allowed, my complaint is that why the Wiki policy is not enforced consistently. Rangers00 (talk) 17:54, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know where those quotes come from, but they look like they're quotes from the lead, which should then be verified later on in the article; see MOS:LEADCITE. Drmies (talk) 17:57, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, no such citations from the lead. Rangers00 (talk) 18:18, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As for "significant enough to remember" as the criteria to put up facts, lots of the facts in the Overview section of the 20xx NBA Playoffs are, in my personal opinion, not significant. There are no other sources putting up these facts neither. For example, who cares whether LeBron is the only one in NBA history to record a 20+/15+/15+, or whether the top two seeds fail to make it the Eastern Conference Finals, ... However, these facts are comfortably sitting on the 2020 NBA Playoff page.

I am a sports historian. I put up a lot of fun facts in basketball, football, hockey and soccer on my Twitter page. You may want to check it out (https://twitter.com/2016majic). In the current world with lots of crisis, these things are insignificant in the grand scheme of things, but neither are the Overview facts on Wiki's NBA playoff pages, such as Lebron's 20/15/15, the top two seeds failing to make it to the ECF, or Anthony Davis scoring 30+ in his first 2 Finals games, etc. Rangers00 (talk) 02:31, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Rangers00. Regarding other pages, if there is content that is either not verifiable or that you don't believe is an improvement, you can be bold and remove it or start a discussion at its respective talk page. Related to this topic is the essay WP:OTHERCONTENT.—Bagumba (talk) 08:52, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]