User talk:Shaddim

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Copyvio link issue[edit]

While many of the links you are adding to articles are good references to older magazines, I am concerned that the inclusion to the PDF of the apparently-unauthorized scan for this articles are inappropriate, even though the rest of the ref appears to be legitimate. Unless you can show that these PDFs aren't copyright violations, you should not include such links in these additions, though you can add the rest of the reference information appropriately. --MASEM (t) 00:07, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

good point, i will try to solve that issue. greetingsShaddim (talk) 13:17, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
ok was in contact with the author of the reviews and provider of the scans, Damien McFerran. He has an informal OK from the retro-magazin in showing this scans on his page. Shaddim (talk) 17:49, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

List of audio trackers[edit]

Hi Shaddim, thanks for the Schism refs. In terms of WP:RS, Free Software Directory is a definite "no". I've not come across QJ.net before but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt - it's not self-published which is usually a good sign. Marasmusine (talk) 13:02, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

hello marasmusine, thanks for your feedback and support. If I come accross better secondary refs I will add them.cheers, Shaddim (talk) 13:21, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
This is going to sound like I have some kind of vendetta against Schism, but I noticed that the QJ post is just a reprint of the developer's notes: It's a primary source. Again, I'll leave it alone for a while, perhaps something better will turn up. Marasmusine (talk) 09:14, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
i keep on searching for a better ref. the monthly "computer music magazine" is an potential source for tracker refs, they have regularly tracker related information (rubric 'totally trackers' or in 'freeware') (some issues are here http://issuu.com/). in the (very) few issues i found in the web and checked, sunvox, renoise etc. was mentioned but not schism. Shaddim (talk) 10:44, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Electronic Entertainment Expo-logo.svg[edit]

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Thank you. DASHBot (talk) 18:19, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

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Talkback[edit]

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GNU Assembler page - sample programs[edit]

I noticed your edit on GNU_Assembler and I wonder why include sample programs at all if the list is no comprehensive? Or if so should we avoid hello world and display how more complex instructions may work? Also, the fact must be considered that GAS in not only used on x86, why include x86 samples? I'm curious as to what your thoughts are on this. Friecode (talk) 23:03, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi Friecode, one of the more prominent aspects which differentiates the GAS from other assemblers is the register clobber list (the other one is the perceived AT&T focus). The existing example (and also the text) did not reflect this, in general the article should be expanded not shrinked. Even when not taking the clobber list in consideration the intel syntax question/long standing debate is high profile enough to allow a example on it's own. So, this two differentiating aspects to other assemblers should be appropriate reflected in article, e.g. with a code example, which should be the startingpoint for a needed expansion. Shaddim (talk) 09:18, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

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"no license" = proprietary[edit]

Hi there! I see you reverted my change. You do realize that under the Berne convention, unless a license is specified, it's then all rights reserved, which means proprietary? The proprietary software definition you mention was wrong, I fixed it. Palosirkka (talk) 08:30, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi Palosirkka, thanks for feedback. While this might be a valid interpretation from legal point of view, this is clearly not what was intended and meant in some cases (e.g. the release of the Beyond Castle Wolfenstein without specific licensing was more likely meaning "public domain" than "proprietary") on this page. Therefore I think it is not a good idea and a oversimplification by putting everything without license in the same bag "proprietary". cheers Shaddim (talk) 09:26, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

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About Falcon 4.0[edit]

Hi,

Regarding your edit about Falcon 4.0 in the List of commercial video games with later released source code, here are a few remarks:

  • You shouldn't mention the BSD license, since it has absolutely no legal value. Clearly, Falcon 4 source code comes from an unauthorized leak (from April 2000) and the code on BSD is just a derivative from that stolen code that some guys decided to put on "BSD". In a nutshell, it's still copyrighted work.
  • I don't think leaked source code has a place on the List of commercial video games with later released source code article, since all of these games were released by their publishers/creators. Imho, Falcon 4 has no place there.

Thanks for your work on the Falcon_4.0 article. I'll try to review and expand a bit when I find time to do so.

--Spyhawk (talk) 10:43, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi Spyhawk, Wikipedia has for good luck freedoms in reporting and writing about legal questionable, unclear or even illegal aspects of notable topics. I completely agree with you that the BSD release is highly suspicious, but we don't have proof that this was not done in legally OK way, backed by a a "behind curtain agreement". Even if not so, it would be still a noteable fact (e.g. if this ends in court) that someone has re-released the falcon code under a license he had no right to do so. The list's inclusion policies are a little bit vague: as the game source code was "released" 2000 by a developer (not stolen by a external person) it could be argued that this case fits the description of the page. Thanks for your current and future work on the falcon articles, appreciated. regards Shaddim (talk) 19:03, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
Hi Shaddim, Well the proof is that the rights on the code are still owned by some commercial companies. There is not official statement that the code was released to the community. Beside this, I followed the discussion between the (former) FreeFalcon group and the guys that released the code (some of which are former FreeFalcon members). Sadly, the forum of this discussion has been taken offline when the official FreeFalcon group was disbanded. Writing that the leaked code is under "BSD" is simply a lie. As a sidenote, the original code has been "leaked", not released officially (probably by a _former_ employee). The story of Falcon 4 is complicated, but really, this has nothing to do on this page as all the other game codes were released officially, not leaked. Spyhawk (talk) 18:04, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
Hi Spyhawk, my point is: I don't interprete the questionable legal status as exclusion reason for this list (several other releases are questionable too, while I agree Falcon might be the most questionable). The community driven Falcon development was accepted for some time by the copyright holder and obviously tolerated later. Also, how much of the original Falcon code is still in? If majority is now rewritten by the community who knows what an court would rule here? Shaddim (talk) 19:05, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
PS: Thanks for the wording improvement, in fact I would tend to this solution, a better formulation which makes the potential illegality clear. regards Shaddim (talk) 20:13, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
Hi Shaddim, You might not interpret the questionable legal status, but I do. Unless you undertake a Clean room design approach, the leaked code still infringe the copyright of the original code. I might steal your car, modify it and release under a BSD license, that will still be your car. At least, please don't list the BSD license as this is simply a lie at best. The underground code has not been "accepted" nor tolerated at all. In fact the history shows various Cease and Desist order to the community code branches. As you have guessed, I'm highly in favor of removing the Falcon 4.0 entry on this page, although I wouldn't object to add it to a "List of commercial video games with later leaked source code". Spyhawk (talk) 13:01, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
Hi Skyhawk, I see your point. As the legal situation IS complicated, falcon's history is of great interest for Wikipedia. I would see it as major loss if this interesting case would be lost for the public (also in this list). On your suggestion for a additional page/table of leaked/questionable source code releases, this might be a solution. Shaddim (talk) 13:28, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
PS: another possiblity would be renaming to the more general: "List of commercial video games with available source code" Shaddim (talk) 15:37, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
Hi Shaddim, your suggestion to rename the article to a more global list sounds like a perfect solution to me. This would also remove the uncertainty on all games that haven't been "properly" released :) Spyhawk (talk) 16:34, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
Great! Thanks for consensus, renamed accordingly. regards Shaddim (talk) 16:44, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

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Leak (Software)[edit]

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Overlinking[edit]

(1) When I revert your edit for overlinking (linking things like "London" and "England") and you disagree, the proper options per BRD are discussion or nothing. Reverting a revert is edit warring. (2) It is incumbent upon the editor to make the changes stick. Your link to "copyright infringement" is fine, but all of the other patently overlinked stuff should not be linked. If you want to add back "copyright infringement", go ahead, but you just restored all of the bad links with your revert as well. Burden is on the person adding the links to make the change worth it—I shouldn't have to pick the good parts from the bad for you. – czar 08:46, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

You revert was not bold in first place as the majority of links added was clearly not OLINK. While London and England can be debated, they are also not trivial links & obviously falling under OLINK, so I consider the revert founded. My general remark here would be on your edit style. It would reduce tension significantly if you would do more "fixing" instead of broad deletion. (If you would have removed London and England only I wouldn't have reverted.) cheers Shaddim (talk) 08:56, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
No, your edit was bold. I reverted. The majority of the links were indeed overlinking: California, London, England are all "the names of major geographic features and locations". If I reject your edit, it's up to you, as the bold proposer to resubmit an edit that works, not to just revert a revert and start an editor war. With all the talk at Commons about making more work for the maintainers, it is ironic that you're arguing that page maintainers should be trimming all sorts of inappropriate additions to make them fit. Burden is on the bold editor, not the maintainer. Please remove your links. – czar 19:14, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
See, this is debateable. I think my links were a contribution, you think some of them were unneeded. Point of view. I would be nice if you would go for an compromise instead of a polarizing full revert. But, this case is resolved and the commons discussion is another topic. (especially as I defend one of your uploads.) cheers and best regards Shaddim (talk) 23:22, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

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Elite[edit]

Hi,

Just letting you know I accidentally rollbacked your edits instead of just undoing the last one - mouse slipped as I clicked. I self-reverted and then correct your last edit. Chaheel Riens (talk) 13:43, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifiyign this slip: still, I guess you misunderstood the edit (or I should make the edit more clear): Pinder reverse engineered a platform neutral C version from the original assembly and binary. How should I formulate it to make this clear? cheers! Shaddim (talk) 18:45, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
You seem to have done a good enough job without my cack-handed help! Chaheel Riens (talk) 22:11, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

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A barnstar for you![edit]

Original Barnstar Hires.png The Original Barnstar
Thats an acceptable compromise! Thank you for your support! Stay tuned for our first public release!!! mv (talk) 05:55, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

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Restoring unsourced content[edit]

Hi. Regarding your recent reversion of WTFPL, please review WP:Verifiability, particularly WP:BURDEN. To summarize: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and so everything must be verifiable, meaning most everything must be sourced. If it’s not sourced, it may be removed at any time, no matter how “important” or “valuable” it may be, and it should not be restored without a source. This is Wikipedia policy, which is the closest thing to law that we have around here, so it should really be followed. (There was one citation in what I recently removed, but I found nothing in that source to support the cited claims.) If you have sources to support the removed content, great—add citations. If you don’t, leave it be for now, and you can always retrieve it from the revision history if you find one later. Or if you don’t feel that a claim needs a source, please discuss it on the article’s Talk page where we may reach a consensus.

Take care. If you wish to reply to this for any reason, please notify me on my Talk. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 14:20, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

trivial facts don't need to be sourced, we still have some room for own edits and don't need to copy one-to-one other texts (beside that this would be a copyright infringement). Beside, why do you prefer to edit as IP, you seems to be knowledgeable about WP and its policies ? Also, please, use extensive edit comments ESPECIALLY on deletes which are the more controversial activities you can do on WP. Shaddim (talk) 14:27, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
Actually, trivial facts don’t need to be mentioned at all. Anyway, I noticed you restored the contested content without sources again, so this time I simply tagged it with {{cn}} or {{fv}} as appropriate. If we are to continue this dispute, let’s please use the article’s Talk page rather than your own; that’s what it’s there for. Cheers. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 15:52, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

“Aw” in edit summaries[edit]

Hi. I’ve noticed that a lot of your edit summaries consist of the word “aw” ([1][2][3][4]). I only know this word as an interjection in English, but that doesn’t seem to fit with the comments where you use it; what does it mean to you when used in summaries? Thanks. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 23:18, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

sorry, I use it as abbrevation for "answer"... maybe I should stop that. Thanks for the feedback Shaddim (talk) 14:50, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
Ohh. Might I suggest using ans instead? But thanks for explaining! —67.14.236.50 (talk) 12:18, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your help[edit]

Thank you for your kind help with my Draft:Gregorio. I resubmitted it right now, after finding another good external source - an external view from the Developer of MuseScore. Pity, that I didn't find the Oxford Paper! Hope the best for the third try! Cheers, --Johannes Arnold (talk) 06:11, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Good luck with your article... I believe more polish is possible and beneficial, keep on working: formating the refs and filling the red wikilinks, finding more refs! Don't give up, what ever the outcome is ;) cheers Shaddim (talk) 14:48, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
Honestly ... I'm a bit pessimistic. But this article will come some day. To much effort up to now. And the software truly deserves an article. Btw ... not that I'm planning to cheat, honestly ... but is there any other way to create an article than AfC? Or is it relatively new? Or is the direct creation restricted to more experienced users? I don't know this review process from the German Wikipedia. --Johannes Arnold (talk) 06:24, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
Indeed. AfC is not mandatory (up to now) ... Bringing and keeping material even in WP is hard enough, so an extra control instance helps only in keeping even more stuff out. While spam and propaganda fighting is important and hard, bringing in material is too hard now compared with 10 years ago.
Unbelieveable! My article was accepted! Thought that it would never happen... Thank you very much! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johannes Arnold (talkcontribs) 05:17, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Inappropriate edit summary[edit]

Your edit summary here strikes me as a rather inappropriate response to legitimate problems, even if the edit addressed them. Please review WP:ESDOS. Thanks. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 22:47, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Hi 67.14.236.50, you are right but please understand that it is frustrating for content producing authors to see, after working long on the article's content and significantly improving it, it paved with policy infoboxes in drive-by edits. I mean, we all have our pet peeves at WP and for some it seems to be "reviewing" article's structure and policy conformity.... well, sometimes I wish WP editing would work with less friction between the authros. Beside, I disagree on the need for secondary sources for non-controversial trivial facts, primaries sources are sued in WP and are fine for many things. the core policy of WP is verifiability not truth (which also reliable sources can't provide). And this specific case Lemonade Stand I would really, really enjoy if you would fix the issue which you think you thought you idetified. I think we can agree that finding sources which satisfy your need for third party sources can be found in big numbers. Please go for it. cheers Shaddim (talk) 07:57, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Adding content means adding suitable sources. Some people are excellent researchers; I am not, never have been. And I’m not under any obligation to find sources for something that’s already in an article. Neither are you, nor anyone else, unless you argue to keep that content. The WP:BURDEN is on the editors who want that content in. I’m not fighting to remove that content; I just want to be able to verify it, not just take some one-man company or GitHub user’s word for it. I’m not sure what you’re calling a non-controversial trivial fact, but an official release into open-source is certainly not one of those. A press release or something official from the owner, Apple, would do fine—that would be a primary source, but a primary source reporting on itself. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 16:19, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
You use "verify" in the sense "it is true" but this is not the goal of WP. The goal is that the content is "verifiabily", aka transparency for the reader, by having sources available. The authors balance the content and present it in neutral way, to not mislead reader with a bias and underdeveloped article, means, they have some responsibility (unlike in the "verified content only" model where author becomes just quotation monkeys). And this is a very fine goal and worked well the first years of WP. See, with the "verified content only" approach much, much content gets filtered out and the readers are ripped of their chance to make up their own mind. I see the point in aplying such strict polcies on highly controversial articles where factiosn fighting for dominance and every word... but for 95% of non-controverisal articles, which starve for content... no, it is unneeded burden and limits the progress of WP. About non-controversial facts, these are facts which rise the bloodpressure of no-one, not peopel associated with this topic...like was some software released 1979. To have this information in is significant more important than to have it in "verified" form , which is in the majority of cases not avialable, therefore is here a weak primary source very fine. "Verifiability" for the reader is fullfiled, he make his own mind. cheersShaddim (talk) 17:38, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Actually, according to WP:V: In Wikipedia, verifiability means that anyone using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source. It’s fine to have your own opinion about it, but not if you ignore the consensus of policy. There’s nothing reliable about an unofficial GitHub project. We could take this to WP:VPP or something if you don’t believe me. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 12:15, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
You focus on the minor idea, "reliable source" (if you follow the links you see the complicated, convoluted, helpless tries to fixate this vague idea), while the big idea is "verifiabilty", which is a clear, undebated and easy to verify concept. And a github reference can be easy verfied by a reader, just follow the link, who can than make up his own mind. This is also the usage in the academic domain, use and bring sources, be verifiable. Next step there (secondary importance), use good sources ("reliable sources") but this is only a guideline not a requirement. It is a pity that several policy interpretation deviated in direction of overfocussing on distracting details with only small benefit. Shaddim (talk) 14:12, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
PS: as last point, this policy was formulated so strict like that to filter out the mis-usage of sources in the form "unreliable Source1" says "party 2" said "opinion 3" about "subject 4" -> hearsay. Which was a serious problem as such formulations were used in WP to constitute content which indicated "truth". This stuff needed to be filtered out, the SNR ratio needed to be imrpoved. Therefore the requirement for "reliable sources" was introcued especially for controversial topics. Problem is, this policy is mis-used to filter out also perfectly fine statements of the form "party 1 says something about subject 2" (not hearsay), on non-controverisal topics. Such an excessive interpretation was never intended. Shaddim (talk) 14:24, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Again, if you disagree with me on the importance of reliable sources, we can always request more input. Until then, let’s please follow the policy, however overly strict you may personally believe it to be. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 00:15, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
You misinterpete the policy of verificabilty. Short and plain. Also, it would be beneficialy if you would do complete work on articles. Research work not only policy "checking work" ... fixing identifyed problems, not increasing the pile of unsolved problems for WP. Shaddim (talk) 16:38, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
I’m not adding to the problems by pointing out that they exist. In fact, that’s the only way one can reasonably expect the problems to be solved. Flaunting the need for RS, as you have been doing, is what adds to the pile. Please stop. These links may help: WP:SOURCE, WP:RS. Please read them and heed them. If you disagree with them, or with my interpretation of them, let’s ask someone else: would you mind if I pinged you in a helpdesk question? —67.14.236.50 (talk) 23:38, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
You are excessively overfocussed on "reliable"... which you use as synonym for truth. It seems you are one the people who can't stand ambiguity and weaker forms of reality. No, not everything is yes or no, sometimes reality is more subtle and an "reliable" answer is not available. But these are the interesting parts, ESPECIALLY worth being mentioned. This is a normal situation and readers can (and should) handle that. The core mission of WP is not truth but transparency and verfiability of the content. Unlike what many teachers and other people in academy believe goal is not to simplify the interpretation of the world to black/with yes/no schemes. Reality is complicated, nuanced, subtle and we as authors have to handle that. Stripping out everything "grey" is doing the readers a dis-service and treats them as childs without reading competency. May I remind you that we also the have the simplified English wikipedia for the case you, it seems, fight for? Shaddim (talk) 08:37, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Magazine clippings and unreliable sources[edit]

Regarding these edits, please see the article’s Talk page at Talk:Tornado (1993 video game)#Magazine citations where I explain my rationale, as well as this helpdesk discussion (permalink) which informed it. A personal website is not a reliable source of magazine clippings. The magazine issue itself is perfectly reliable, though. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 23:32, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Actually, here: WP:RSN#Endgame: Singularity. If we can agree to abide by whatever decision is made there, we can hopefully settle this once and for all. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 00:04, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Again, your sole argument is (non-)"reliable", this is your only mission. Who cares that this scans are made from someone else not deemed reliable by you or an arbitrary list? This is a non-issue if it is presented to the reader in transparent way. Because also the the so called "reliable" sources called fucked up such an scan the same ways. Again, verifiabiltiy and transparency are the big goals. Shaddim (talk) 08:41, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
“Verifiable” means supported by a reliable source. You are the first established editor I’ve encountered who did not accept this consensus. Please carefully review WP:V, or ask for outside input and stop relying solely on your own personal interpretation. Post to WP:Teahouse/Questions or WP:Help desk or WP:Village pump and see what the community says. If the consensus is not with me, I will back down in shame. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 15:12, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
You can try present me as exception but reality is, your excessive literal interpretation of the policies while missing the intend for WP's greater goal ("creating a repository of all human knowledge") is the anomaly. Also, this fight is not new but goes on since years. PS: this should be not about shame, but about "how we work together for the greater goal of WP". I acknowledge that the articles we worked now together on are better in the mean. Shaddim (talk) 15:21, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
All right, I’ll ask for input at WP:Help desk. You should get a notification when I ping you. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 15:24, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Escalating should be not required here, but well, then escalate it. You are aware that we face since too long a dwindeling number of authors who create content? You are interested in reducing this even further? go on Shaddim (talk) 15:28, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
(Same user on a public computer.) You are mischaracterizing my position. We do need more editors to create verifiable, reliably sourced content. We do not need more editors to recklessly add dubious content from unreliable sources, and spread misinformation about core content policies. Please be the former. —151.132.206.26 (talk) 19:37, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
See, I see the complete reliable source debate & policy as highly problematic. In the end, it is futile to try to binary classify sources into reliable and unreliable one, it is an continuum. And for many things there are only weak sources available. Now, can we as authors present this weak information in non-misleading way to the readers with a net benefit? I believe yes. In the end, the authors have to decide how place and present carefully the information. If we take away too much freedom for the authors and try to reduce them to "reliable source copy monkeys" we will have problems gathering more authors. And also we limit the scope of WP significantly, far below the original vision "the sum of all human knowledge" which would be a shame. Shaddim (talk) 08:45, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
As far as I know, the longstanding consensus is that if only weak sources are available for a claim, in general, we do not include that claim.
I think you’re kind of missing the point of Wikipedia. Yes, the scope of this project is limited. We report what reliable sources say about subjects. That’s what we do. If you don’t want to be what you call a “reliable source copy monkey,” well, that’s kind of what a competent Wikipedia contributor is. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 18:45, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
I indeed hope for a greater wikipedia beyond the small minded vision of exclusionist, my vision follows the original idea: "'sum of all human knowledge'". A Britannica we had already. (And about reliable sources... I understand the beauty in the vision to have something like that, but... in reality there are no "reliable sources", despite how hard we try to believe and define them into reality) Shaddim (talk) 19:58, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Philosophy aside, I mean “reliable sources” as defined in WP:Reliable sources. I’m surprised that wasn’t clear, but I apologize for any misunderstanding caused by my use of common Wikipedia jargon. Please also note that when I speak of “verifiability” or something being “verifiable,” I’m referring to the sense used by WP:V, etc. If you think some other sense of the words should be preferred, I encourage you to make a proposal at WP:VPP to change the relevant page(s). —67.14.236.50 (talk) 22:57, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes, and this definitions are weak as hell. A big pile of policies for the weakest part... reliability is a continuum not a binary quality. Our policies are not as binary as you try to present and apply it. I think you can't deny that primary sources are not forbidden. Shaddim (talk) 08:17, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Not forbidden, but certainly discouraged for anything other than simple facts about the source itself. Any dummy with a web host can make a website with any sorts of wildly inaccurate claims about anything, including himself and his projects. It’s about credibility, basically. And please note that “primary sources” and “unreliable sources” are not the same thing (and I don’t think I’ve ever claimed as much); some primary sources are reliable , and some secondary sources are unreliable. That’s why “reliable secondary sources” are commonly referred to. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 09:08, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
That's reality, it's complicated. Also, the definition what is (more/less) reliable is complicated, as there is no pool of naturally tagged "good" reliable sources available and a non-tagged nonreliable source pool. Reality is nuanced and gray. Therefore we have authors here who do balancing, reviewing and cross checking of all possible sources. Can we agree on the "strive for" formulation from the 5 pillars? We should "strive for verifiable accuracy" utilizing, if possible, better, balanced and many sources?Shaddim (talk) 09:21, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Of course, as long as you accept the fact that some sources may be considered unreliable and unsuitable. We’ll use the best sources available, unless there are no decent sources available. And if you find yourself scraping the bottom of the barrel, whatever it is you’re trying to support probably doesn’t belong on Wikipedia. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 11:01, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
"doesn’t belong on Wikipedia" and exactly this is not written in the five pillars. But thanks for making your exclusionist agenda/motivation public. Shaddim (talk) 11:06, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Judging by the response you got when we asked the help desk about reliable sources, it seems more likely the issue is your extreme inclusionist tendencies. You can’t just ignore the standards that the community has set for the project. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 11:25, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Standards are set by the 5 pillars and policies, and as I laid out, I'm very well in. While you seems to go beyond, trying to enforce "mandatory" where "recommended" is requested for sensible cases. Shaddim (talk) 11:29, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
No. Standards are set by consensus. Policies are set by consensus. Everything we do is governed by consensus. Be wary of WP:IDONTHEARTHAT. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 11:36, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
What do you talking about? Where I said something else? Obviously the policies are the written form of such consensus. Beside, I like how you ignore things you don't like. I laid out the compatibility of my position to the five pillars (in the from you initiated helpdesk discussion) and how your position goes beyond. Care to answer a single time on that? Shaddim (talk) 11:42, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
All right, the five pillars… well, the three which are relevant:
  • Wikipedia is intended to be a high-quality encyclopedia. To provide encyclopedic value, data should be put in context with explanations referenced to independent sources. A self-published announcement of a personal achievement is not an independent source for itself.
  • Wikipedia must be neutral and balanced. Discussion of isolated events […] about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. Giving "equal validity" can create a false balance, and including a mention of unofficial ports that have received zero coverage does exactly that. (I may be stretching this one a bit by applying it to concepts other than viewpoints, but that’s a common practice accepted by consensus.)
  • Improving and maintaining Wikipedia trumps almost everything. Don’t be reckless in ignoring the rules, but If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it. Publishing information that hasn’t yet been reported by a single secondary source is generally not considered an improvement. But the best way to make sure something is an improvement is generally to ask other editors, which I’ve been urging you to do.
There you go. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 14:05, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
I honestly have no idea why you seem so convinced that including material wholly based on original research or weak self-published sources is good practice for an encyclopedia editor, but please stop trying to rationalize it, especially when you refuse to even try to get a second opinion about any of it. If you plan on responding to any of my comments on Talk:Endgame: Singularity with the same sorts of rationalizations, please post instead to some kind of noticeboard. If you don’t, I will, and to make sure I don’t misrepresent your position I’ll quote you directly. Fair? —67.14.236.50 (talk) 02:08, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
Who said "wholly" ? The point is: you want a black-white easy scheme for handling material to include, in that case removing bunch of material, and even including wrong information. See Endgame singularity, where you over-focussed followed your simple pattern and decided to stick with them literally. Believing it would be a benefit for WP, interpreting sources literal and including then even wrong information. Pennywise (literal policy compliance), but pound stupid (missing the greater goal of WP). Shaddim (talk) 09:50, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Replying to this comment: It’s not just that we follow different schools of thought. The issue here is that I don’t believe your school of thought is compatible with Wikipedia’s. You want to improve the encyclopedia, but you want to do it on your terms, not the “excessive” terms set by the community, such as only discussing something if it’s been covered by the sources. And it sounds like you’re aware that you’re acting against consensus, so why have you persisted? It’s as if you’re waging a rebellion against the oppressive community, trying to subversively cause change through disruption. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 00:17, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

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Hello! There is a DR/N request you may have interest in.[edit]

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This message is being sent to let you know of a discussion at the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding a content dispute discussion you may have participated in. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult for editors. You are not required to participate, but you are both invited and encouraged to help this dispute come to a resolution. The thread is "Talk:Endgame: Singularity". Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you! —67.14.236.50 (talk) 23:33, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

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If reliability is a pipedream…[edit]

I’ve just noticed what you’re now featuring on your userpage. If you think Wikipedia would attract more editors and be better off with looser standards for verifiability, great—let’s talk about it at WP:Village pump (policy). Because a change of this scale needs to be taken to the community as a whole; acting alone on it would be disruptive and likely create more resistance to the idea. In fact, I could make that proposal for you, if you’d rather not propose it yourself. Or is that what you’re working on putting together? If so, I’ll leave you to it and ask that you notify me of the proposal. I honestly don’t expect it would succeed, but it’s worth a shot, right? —67.14.236.50 (talk) 03:32, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

The piece is not finalized and the point is not get rid of the policy, which had some good intent originally, but the misformed, hurtful, excessive interpretation applied by some misguided authors. (Example here) Let's see. Shaddim (talk) 16:54, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
There’s a huge difference between some editors and the consensus view. What you deem a misinterpretation appears to be the consensus view. This is why I strongly recommend making a proposal to change the policy. Not to get rid of it, but to change it to make the intent more clear. Because if you’re right, that thing really needs to be cleared up. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 01:27, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
Please make sure to make enough advertisement when it's ready. I would strongly support it! --Johannes Arnold (talk) 12:06, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

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Re: Confusing caption[edit]

Nuvola apps edu languages.svg
Hello, Shaddim. You have new messages at Talk:License compatibility.
Message added 16:16, 23 September 2016 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

If you believe that your additions to your re-creation of that diagram do not constitute WP:SYNTHESIS—that is, the inclusion of information not included in the original image (see page 119 of this PDF)—then please justify the discrepancies with the original. Otherwise, please consider replacing our image with a direct and unadulterated copy of Välimäki’s, or removing it. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 03:25, 5 October 2016 (UTC)


Let me be blunt: I don’t care that you, as a lone individual, disagree with the community consensus about what “reliable” means and how important it is. Especially not when you have refused to start a wider discussion about the issue, because you were afraid of an opposing consensus. If you want me to listen, then post about it in a central forum (such as WP:VPP) so I can see you’re not just some rogue outlier, so I can see people agreeing and disagreeing and providing policy-based rationale. If you don’t, and if you keep objecting to my edits, then I’ll start a public conversation on the topic myself, and quite likely wind up reporting you to ANI for ignoring clear consensus.

Also, I really do not appreciate the way you belittle my efforts—your “work” here[5]. If you have so little respect for a fellow editor who’s acting in good faith and actually following a policy that you just don’t like, I am done with you. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 04:03, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

I tried hard to find middle groudna grement with you, but you insisted on a excessive interpretation where no consensus exist. There was the option that you just work somewhere else, WP is big, but you liked to keep escalating trying to enforce me to comply to your interpretation, disrupting my contribution and workign processes. To say it blunt: I will not accept your excessive and harmful interpretation you try to enforce. I would appreciate if you would work somewhere else. I admit there is indeed enough and good an valuable work for organizers and policy enforcers on WP to do, but I'm not a suitable target. Shaddim (talk) 15:32, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

ArbCom Elections 2016: Voting now open![edit]

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Citation information[edit]

When adding references to an article, please strive to include author name, date published, date accessed, the website’s name (not its domain name—e.g., Free Software Foundation, not fsf.org), and the original links and archival dates if using Archive.org or similar. See WP:CITEHOW for rationale. Also, please try to keep your formatting consistent with other citations in the article, to minimize reader confusion. I find WP:CS1 templates helpful in including all relevant information in a consistent format. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 05:31, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Pardon, I'm aware of this, but don't consider it important enough and my time and motivation is limited (thanks for doing some formating work, I did this years ago myself for others). Formating issues are secondary vs the importance of adding content & refs. If you feel the need for improved formating, do it yourself. My goal is to provide content, a goal most active authors don't follow. Shaddim (talk)
I’m more concerned about the information about the source. A lot of the refs of yours that I’ve seen are missing important information like dates (especially access dates) and website names, or the sort of archive information that you added here. That’s why I named this section “Citation information” and not “Citation formatting.” —67.14.236.50 (talk) 07:13, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
Also this I consider secondary as this information is available/reconstructable from the edit history of the article. Infact I'm more concerned with the question of not webarchived sources (robot text set) where the information get lost if overly eager bureaucratic editors remove my inline quotes in the references, as it happened already (while also in this case still in the history). Shaddim (talk) 11:06, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
Please watch the personal attacks, and avoid terms like “overly eager bureaucratic editors.” —67.14.236.50 (talk) 16:32, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Regarding this edit, I’ll say again: Please include the website’s name (not domain name) in citations. The domain name is already included in the URL. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 18:23, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Start a public discussion or leave me be[edit]

If you have a problem with the way I edit Wikipedia, I encourage you to open a discussion someplace like WP:DR or WP:ANI rather than ridiculing me on obscure article talkpages. If you’re right about me, other editors will agree, and I will comply. If you’re not confident enough to involve other editors, then please cease and desist in criticizing my actions or methodology. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 16:00, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

“Reliability is a pipe dream” essay[edit]

I take it you’re working on an essay on your userpage? I’d just like to comment on one of your points:

Reliability is not verifiability. Of course it isn’t. They can’t even be applied to the same things, so the comparison is nonsensical. Verifiability applies to information, whereas reliability applies to sources of information. “The sun is hot” is verifiable. A bestselling book about the sun’s hotness is reliable.

But the two concepts are related. Verifiability comes from reliable sources. A piece of information is not verifiable if no corroborating sources are reliable. A post about “Why the sun is actually pretty cold” (or in fact about anything at all) in the comment section of a blog could never be used to verify anything, because it is entirely unreliable. Such a comment may make claims which are themselves verifiable by other sources, but the comment itself couldn’t verify anything.

Hope this helps to clear up that distinction for you. Face-smile.svg If you disagree with any of this rationale, I look forward to the discussion. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 23:37, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

one subchapter about the confusion of reliable encyclopedia with reliable sources. Which are not the same at all, maybe the ugly second milk cousine. Shaddim (talk) 22:25, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
second note, verfiablity and reliability are totally decoupled concepts. verifiabilty lives very nice on its own, reliability was put on top, after it was found out verifiability is too weak. The line of thoughts was: "we want a reliable encyclopedia" -> "let's request sources! if it is verfiable it will get more reliable!" -> "crap that didn't worked well... let's ask for "reliable" sources. clearly, with reliable sources we will have reliable encyclopedia" -> "crap, what are reliable sources? let's discuss that endlessly" -> "crap where are our authors?" Shaddim (talk) 22:29, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
An encyclopedia is reliable if and only if it uses reliable sources. Otherwise, we’d have no grounds to claim our own reliability. The “endless discussion” is in fact called “governing by consensus,” which is how Wikipedia operates, and is also why we require reliable sources. Key word being “require.” You are of course free to petition for a change in that consensus, but until you have successfully done so, please abide by it and do not seek to obstruct (or insult!) others like me from abiding by it. I understand that you don’t agree with that requirement, but by editing Wikipedia you agree to accept it. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 23:20, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
"An encyclopedia is reliable if and only if it uses reliable sources." You imply, this is the one and only way to achieve it. Which is obviously this is wrong, there a many: this is a "means" not the "ends"! Maybe this is one of the policies over applied by a group of authors but not the only approach. First, there are no "reliable sources", even the most reliable source fails sometimes. Even if we select the top 10% most reliable sources (currently, we even have no clear metrics and consensus where to draw thr cut...while the idea of an bianry cut is stupid by itself), the result would be still not a reliable WP (in the absolute sense). Second, there are other ways of achieving reliability like, peer reviewing, letting knowledgable people lookign on things. A variant is trusting a crowd, a concept we still have and had in former times more prominent. Shaddim (talk) 23:41, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
Last point, you keep on trying to imply there is "clarity" and "consesnsus" in the polcies but there is not... they are conflicting and contradicting. Also, authors' interpretation varies heavily... which could be seen as healthy thing. (will make an chapter about that) While some believe broadness in authors' vision an approach is weakness and we need the exact on policy and strict interpretation. No, we don't need that at all. This is totally secondary and distracting from our main goal: creating a reliable encyclopedia of all human knowledge. This is the only hard policy we have. Everything else a weak guidelines, futily weak trying to sharpen this goal in "manageable" policies. manager thinking who get nervous on a unmanageable mass. Let the crowd handle that again, see reddit who took the model conseuently, the valuable content is voted up, reddit trusts the crowd without excessive policy temples and it works, like it worked for us in former times. Shaddim (talk) 23:41, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
Can you give an example of an encyclopedia that is widely regarded as reliable, which does not itself use sources that would be considered reliable by Wikipedia’s standards? In other words, can you give a counterexample to my “if and only if” claim?
And you seem to forget that I recently notified you of a second discussion to clarify the consensus. As well as the earlier such discussion I had alerted you to. Turns out the consensus still clearly contradicts your own position. Please stop ignoring/denying any and all evidence of this, without offering any evidence of your own.67.14.236.50 (talk) 00:45, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
Yes, wikipedia before the excessive polic extension. Was evaluated by Nature and was considered as reliable as the Britannica. As I pointe out already in the essay. Another example: the Britanica, which does not relies on reliable sources but authors. Exactly as we did before.
About your second point: you fail to show that there is "consensus", beside, that there are polices. And in the interpretation of the polcies there is space, even if you hate and deny that. You chose to interprete an extreme variant into them, I chose another. And this is fine. Shaddim (talk) 17:57, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
And while I don't really follow your tries to escalate this discussion to higher levels, your response is not as clar cut as you hoped for... there is not a consensus in the way you try to enforce it. Shaddim (talk) 18:00, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
I’m pretty sure that at that time, Wikipedia was widely regarded as not reliable. I know that schools had discouraged or even banned using it as a source for research papers. But I was asking for examples other than WIkipedia, which may not have been clear. You said there were many ways. This naturally means there should be many examples. Like what?
Starting a Village Pump discussion isn’t “escalation to higher levels.” That’s absurd. Escalation would be reporting you to WP:ANI for disruptive editing or something. Policies reflect consensus. Public discussion establishes consensus. If you need me to pull quotes from those discussions to show that they back up my argument, let me know and I will. Your position, that WP:V only requires reliable sources in limited circumstances, has no backing that I have seen, and no support from other editors in these discussions. In fact, in an earlier discussion you were directly told that you were wrong. My position, that reliable sources are required for anything that isn’t patently obvious, is the consensus view (and, again, let me know if you need me to directly show evidence). If the consensus is “extreme,” I don’t know what you think that word means. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 23:43, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
" I know that schools had discouraged or even banned using it as a source for research papers." indeed, but this was FUD, spewed by competitors and academia who felt threatend by the amateur movement. I gave you already reliable sources which proved that WP was at that time reliable!!!! Shaddim (talk) 23:50, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
The statement from Nature is heavily qualified. But I asked for non-Wikipedia examples. If you were right about the many other ways of writing a reliable encyclopedia, there should be many examples. Are there any? —67.14.236.50 (talk) 00:41, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

I took it upon myself to copyedit a paragraph of your work in progress here, before discovering that IP editors can’t edit userpages. I suggest perhaps moving the draft to a subpage like User:Shaddim/"Reliability" is a pipe-dream, or even Draft:"Reliability" is a pipe-dream, to invite collaboration. In the meantime, I’ll leave this proposed edit here for your consideration:

One of the failures of current policy enforcement is mistaking the means for the ends. This is understandable; on one hand having simple, clearly applicable policies is charming, simple, and clear-cut, and therefore provides a personally rewarding activity. Deletion of 20,000 characters of content on a Wikipedia page, created by some other author in a long night's work, is rewarding… and all to the benefit of WP. But is it? If we look back to our very origin, the intended and original vision of Wikipedia was (and is) to provide a reliable source of information. Plain and simple. The ways to achieve that are plentiful. In the beginning, the approach to reliable information was the very Wiki principle, also called Linus' law: "given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow"—or just "trust the crowd". Gather enough authors, and no bullshit or lousy content will survive long under their gazing eyes… plainly, trust the crowd, no complicated policy bullshit. And it worked well, Wikipedia grew successfully… until the traditional media fought back, by accusing Wikipedia of being unreliable. Now Wikipedia grew nervous in their approach of "trust[ing] the same community to self-regulate and become more proficient at quality control."

Please note that though I attempted to make it easier to read, I did nothing to address what I consider the more fundamental flaws in the rhetoric. Also, please do not overlook my last reply above. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 01:58, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

RPL usage[edit]

Re this reversion, please answer my question on the Talk page regarding the suitability of the content regardless of sourcing. And in general, please address any Talk issues before reverting. Thanks. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 01:49, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

you are the one with excessive deletions without discussions. Shaddim (talk) 19:02, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
I’ll ask you again to refrain from personal attacks. Where discussion is ongoing, I discuss. You restored contested content while leaving concerns unanswered, and apparently had to be reminded of the discussion. Also, please stop characterizing my edits as “excessive” while you are the only one making such a claim. I could similarly say that your unsourced contributions are reckless or irresponsible—but I don’t because that would only be my personal opinion, as well as a personal attack, neither of which is helpful to the project or its editors. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 21:36, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
yeah, I agree, we should cool down... also this discussion here is out of loop on the actual status of our discussion. Shaddim (talk) 21:45, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Linux.com[edit]

I didn't intend to remove the Linux.com reference. KnowledgeBattle (Talk) | GodlessInfidel ︻╦╤── 16:56, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

I just added the linux.com as new ref. Where it is stated the that the removed source is scam? It looked legit to me. Shaddim (talk) 17:35, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Editing ideologies[edit]

I mean your interpretation of the policies. As you should have accepted now, following from the discussion on WP:V or in the Third Opinion, there is not clear consensus how and how strict to interprete them. And you fall clearly on one extreme end. Please accept that there is interpretation space, conflicting requirements, grey areas which result in space for the authors. I would recommend you as experience, switching the sides and building up a page from ground. seriously, do that.Shaddim (talk) 14:43, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

I do acknowledge that I had misinterpreted BURDEN as supporting the removal of unsourced content due solely to the fact that it was unsourced. But I believe you repeatedly blatantly violated that same bit of policy by restoring challenged content without establishing its verifiability (which is not the same thing as making the unsupported claim that “it’s verifiable”), as well as attempted to shift the WP:ONUS to a consensus for removal rather than inclusion. But, again, this is getting into discussion of editors rather than discussion of an article, which is why I’m replying on your personal Talk page instead.
As I’ve said before, provide quality sources and I’d be happy to attempt to build something out of them. I thought we’d made such an arrangement at Talk:Flatpak, and I’m still waiting. Or was that what you had in mind with the interview you linked at Talk:Reciprocal Public License? —67.14.236.50 (talk) 23:55, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
Also, I would never attempt to build a wiki article in a language I was not fluent in. Just seems like a bad idea. I won’t go into my reasons (unless you ask) because they may come across as an attack on you, since you don’t seem to be quite fluent in English, based on your general sentence structures and difficulty interpreting it. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 00:34, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
I appreciate that you admit that some burden is on remvoal, and that "no sources" is not sufficient. On verifiability, I believe I fullfil WP:V suitable and reasonably well, where required and beneficial. We disagree over the interpretation of WP:V, you try to enforce a literal interpretation, I apply and argue for a pragmatic and adaptive approach. "never attempt to build" see, here lies the chance of collaborative approaches. If your are knowledgeable in fields where most are not, you can contribute and your potential and knowledge shouldn't be wasted by such a secondary aspect...other authors, knowledgeable in other fields will provide other parts. Some are even specialized in improving other secondary aspects, like sentence structure, spelling etc. (And yes, I'm aware my written English does not reach mother language level. But I'm near mother language level in reading and understanding, so your second observation I think is wrong: I can read and understand policies very well.) Shaddim (talk) 11:10, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
WP:V says: All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists and captions, must be verifiable. All material. It’s quite explicit in that. I think you may be confusing “verifiable” with “cited”; being verifiable means a claim could be cited to (ideally an abundance of) reliable sources, if needed. Not everything needs citation. But it needs to be findable in reliable sources. This means that a piece of information that comes from one’s own experience or analysis, or from one’s uncle who works for the government, or from divine revelation, cannot be included in an article if supporting sources do not exist—if it cannot be verified. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 17:17, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
"verifiability" means only that it is verifiable. Not that every bit actually needs to be verified. Then, the "quality" of verification may vary. For many things, primary sources or no sources are fine due to being trivial or being obvious ("blue sky") or directly direct checkable. And your continous mixing in of reliable into verifiability is annoying. And I'm aware that we should not include hearsay as fact. But what we can and should do is inlcude and describe the scope and level and source of this information, in detail and transparent: THIS IS THE TRUE MEANING OF VERIFIABLE, that you also give the origin and strength, THAT THE READER CAN IT VERiFY HIMSELF. This means it is totally fine to write: "it is commonly beleived that" ... giving majority opinion of weak sources, as it is good to give an secondary text book on that topic and say "academic consensus is that..." This is commonly confused by mistaken authors with the simplified approach: finding "reliable" sources and than presenting it as "truth" ... which is horrible misguided, and fails our end-goal of making an reliable encyclopedia. Reliablity is the minor aspect of verfiability. Reliable is a horrible, fuzzy problematic term. For once as it is relative and not absolute quality: there are no absolute reliable sources, this is an fact of the universe we have to handle. But not in the way we insist there are reliable sources and other are not. Reality is grey and fuzzy and so is the concept of "reliability". Shaddim (talk) 13:16, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
And your continous mixing in of reliable into verifiability is annoying. This is what I meant about your difficulty interpreting the language. Read WP:V, particularly the second named section. Or even the very first sentence on the page, which literally defines the one WP concept in terms of the other: In Wikipedia, verifiability means that anyone using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source. Nowhere in that page, nor in any other policy, guideline, or widely accepted essay or other page of any sort, is it implied that non-reliable sources may be taken to verify anything, or that editors may substitute their own definition in place of Wikipedia’s. You may also find it useful to read WP:IRS, which explains in more depth what is meant by “reliability” in the context of Wikipedia. If any confusion remains afterward, just ask and I’ll attempt to help clear it up. You could also try asking at WP:RSN, WP:HD, WP:VPP, etc. to get wider response. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 22:46, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
I'm aware that reliability is linking to verfiability and way around, this is to what I refer as "stupid, self-referential, circular mix up of seperated concepts". It's plainly bad, an horrib le artifact of hisotry. The confusion is on your side to use it in this mixed up way. Shaddim (talk) 14:56, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── That is the way we use those terms. If you disapprove of the semantics, you are free to avoid using these words. Let me have a go of it:

Wikipedia policy requires that all claims be attributable to sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, or sources which have undergone peer review.

Better? —67.14.236.50 (talk) 16:21, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

As I argued already with you multiple times, and wrote in the essay: we aim for a reliable encyclopedia, this is the overarchign goal, everythign else are just means to this end (DON'T CONFUSE MEANS and ENDS). One property to achieve this is goal is verfiablity (NOT SOURCES!) to achieve transparency, ideally rooting in more reliable origins (VISION! NOT HARD REQUIREMENT! AND NOT ONLY WAY!) to prevent POV and propaganda. Again, you miss the main goal by overfocussing on detail formulations, missing the intend. May I ask you a question: how long are you active in WP? Shaddim (talk) 18:36, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
Let's see… wow, since 2005. Not continuously active, though. Took wikibreaks.
I understand what you're saying, but in my opinion, the definition of verifiability currently outlined in WP:V is the best means to our ends. It wouldn't serve anyone to deliver dubious information coming from a sketchy blog as if it were fact. You're welcome to try and get consensus to change, but in the meantime, we all need to respect what the consensus is. —67.14.236.50 (talk) on public network 151.132.206.26 (talk) 23:43, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
No!!! I'm not about pushing blogs as fact, I'm about presnting information as it is, "unreliable", independent from where it comes! Maybe just a little bit more reliable (but not absolute "reliable") from "Nature", and only less reliable when coming from an blog. It is all about the presentation which makes it clear and transparent to the reader where this information comes from and what acceptance this information has. I will argue and defend this point of view that pushing "reliable" sources and presentting them as fact is worse and harming the over arching goal creating a relaible encyclopedia. (approx. you are as long as me part of this project... this makes things not simpler ;) ) Shaddim (talk) 00:11, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
How would you have an encyclopedia state anything, if not as fact? Would you have every cited claim include in-text attribution? Example adapted from WP:CS: The Sun is pretty big, according to academic Edward Miller's book The Sun,[1] but a Scientific American article reports that the Moon is not so big.[2] Miller also claims the Sun is quite hot.[1] I really don’t think that would be beneficial; it would make articles less readable for no good reason, and be downright unworkable in a good many articles.[17][20][23][24] How would you even do that with extraordinary claims supported by several sources? —67.14.236.50 (talk) 05:08, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
For this case we look on a long establisehd fact. For what the sun is exist clear consenus, agreement ("the standard deviation is small and the sample number is high") and very good secondary and tertiary sources. The selection of "more reliable" sources which represetn such a consensus is encouraged in this situation. Presenting of minoty positions is not required (but would be no "hard" failure). Now lets look on more fringe informations, more specialized, newer. In the majority of cases there is not such clear consensus but only some "specialists" defintiion which is not directly contrary but also not identical ("standard deviation is higher, the distribution is still normal distributed, but the sample number is small."). I would argue this situation is the majority of case. In these cases the more specific presentation inlcuding also the source is the proper and correct way which leads to an reliable represnation. Shaddim (talk) 15:59, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
The source is included in a citation footnote. Do you consider this insufficient?
It may be simpler to ask you to just grab a piece of WP content and use it to demonstrate your ideas, as I did with the CS example. Show, rather than tell. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 17:03, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
I did in the articles you callenged. E.g. license compatiblity, which is closely connected to the concept how software parts are "combined": either as derivative works or as composite works. To describe that (and to prevent getting challenged by you for OR) I used the formulation of specialist laurent as exmaple for the common but not universal understanding. (You removed the soruce that the FSf use this definition too, while maybe not literally in that specific source.... focussing on details missing the big picture) Shaddim (talk) 17:10, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
On your sepcific question "The source is included in a citation footnote. Do you consider this insufficient? " yes, source citing alone 'is inusfficient for an good article. We have the responsiblity to balancing articles and embedding them in context ("alternatives, hisotry, origin, motivation") so that the reader get the whole picture. We should act as authors preseting a topic unbiased, whole and NPOV, not just throw a unconnected bunch of "reliable sources" at readers. Shaddim (talk) 17:18, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I mean, take a paragraph or something that’s in good standing with respect to current Wikipedia policies, and post a version here reflecting how it might look under your policies. Like, say, how would your ideas affect the following paragraph? —67.14.236.50 (talk) 17:22, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Koechlin has been acknowledged in the media for her unconventional roles in films and her straightforward personality.[1][2][3] Reviewing her work in Printing Machine, film critic and journalist Subhash K. Jha deemed her the "free-thinking actress this industry [Bollywood] needs".[4] Megha Shah of the GQ called her "someone who can speak her mind, sound intelligent and also look stunning in a bikini".[5] Members of the media have subsequently labelled her as a role model for women across the country.[6] Bhavya Sadhwani, describing her as "a real life heroine", lauded her for "voicing her opinions without an iota of inhibition".[7] The Week stated that with her powerful performances, and by voicing her opinions, she "has always stayed ahead of her contemporaries in the industry".[6]

  1. ^ "Kalki Koechlin turns 32: 5 unconventional roles played by versatile actress". India TV. 10 January 2016. Retrieved 21 January 2016. 
  2. ^ "There's something about Kalki Koechlin". The Indian Express. 14 January 2016. Retrieved 21 January 2016. 
  3. ^ "Verve's Power Women: Kalki Koechlin". Verve Magazine. 6 October 2015. Retrieved 21 January 2016. 
  4. ^ Jha, Subhash (16 January 2016). "The K Factor: Kalki Koechlin is exactly the bad***, free-thinking actress this industry needs". Firstpost. Retrieved 30 March 2016. 
  5. ^ Shah, Megha (22 October 2012). "Kalki Koechlin is our kind of woman". GQ. Retrieved 7 March 2016. 
  6. ^ a b "Kalki Koechlin's The Printing Machine: powerful and thought-provoking [Video]". The Week. 12 January 2016. Retrieved 14 March 2016. 
  7. ^ Sadhwani, Bhavya (12 January 2016). "Kalki Koechlin Puts Out A Powerful Poem On How Badly The Media Treats Women And It's Scarily True". India Times. Retrieved 14 April 2016. 
I would not change that, this is a fine WP chapter, well backed with sources (several sources said "has been acknowledged in the media" -> several sources given ... maybe here should be indicated if that was the majority recpetion). Maybe see the last sentence: something more specific can and should be described more specific: "the Week" said... Shaddim (talk) 20:08, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
(PS: and again, I believe I'm inside the policies, you believe I'm outside Shaddim (talk) 20:11, 10 January 2017 (UTC))
The last sentence does go like that. Not sure what you’re trying to say about it. Or about me being “outside the policies,” considering we agree that this example is in line with current policies. You’re suggesting making changes to policies like WP:V, but not making it clear what effect those changes would have on article content. That is what I am asking you for. I’d grabbed a paragraph from the day’s Featured Article, but if you could find something in WP:TFAA that would be affected, it would be very helpful to show the likely changes here and give me (and others) a concrete idea of what you’re looking to propose. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 03:16, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
you are trying hard to frame me as acting outside the policies and wanting a change. I reject totally your presentation of the situation: it is vice versa as we have seen with the third opinion and the wp:v discussion, i acted fully inside the existing spectrum of authors and their policy interpretation. It was you who tries to push a restricter interpretation beyond the current census. You want change not me. Shaddim (talk) 11:55, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
You vocally disagree with how our policy defines “verifiability,” for one. If you don’t want to change that definition, why do you complain about it? Why do you complain that I act on it? I’m genuinely confused here. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 03:04, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
I complain about the convoluted & conflicting form they are written. While I and many authors are still able to extract the "intent" out of them, others authors got totally stuck in their detail formulations and entanglements ... and for them a rewrite and clarification would be helpful (e.g. separating verifiability form reliability, stating that reliability is an unreachable ideal and not binary, what is main policy what is auxilarly etc). You want a very strict intrpretation which is and was never the intent of current polcies and is also not the consens or onyl interpretation of the authors (see third opinion and WP:V discussion). I see it that way that you want a more strict policies as they are written and meant, e.g. "no sources" instead of "verifiability" . (Or the examples you brought were badly selceted... we should stick to the cases we had already: e.g. your try to remove "examples" as "trivia" from articles which is hilarious--- Or your insisting that being specific on the origin and author of sources is, how you caleld it, "bulky"? In the example you gave the author group and scope of an statement was more or less well defined, as I want it "someone said in some context something has this property", not in the form you want "something is")Shaddim (talk) 14:13, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
I suggest you read WP:In-text attribution. In short, statements of opinion should be attributed (in the text, not just in a footnote) to the holder of that opinion; statements of fact should simply be stated as fact. It sounds like this is also what you believe so I’m not sure where the disagreement is there. But statements of all kinds must be attributable to reliable sources, per WP:V. If you desire verifiability to not be based on reliable sources, then yes, you desire a change to policy. Which is fine, as long as you acknowledge what you’re trying to do.
You keep saying the threshold of reliability is too nebulous. Have you read WP:Identifying reliable sources? That page gives a lot of information on determining how reliable a source is. You really should read it if you’re concerned about the clarity of using the word alone—and we don’t use the words alone; we use the words to refer to policies and guidelines, as jargon. When a Wikipedian talks about “reliability,” he’s not using the dictionary definition of the word as some ideal. He’s discussing how well a given source fulfills our criteria for a reliable source, which are laid out in policies and guidelines. Make sense? —67.14.236.50 (talk) 17:26, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
The only thing what does not make sense is your overfocussing & stuckness on the bad worded reliabilty inclusions in our poclies. Other authors (and me) handle it pragmatically, are aware thaht this is an ideal while you try to imply there is a clear definition or even the possiblity of the existence of "reliable sources". There are not. The only meaning is relative, use more reliable sources if available. (yes, I read this bickering around if or if not somethign is considered reliable or not reliable... it's horrible, waste of time & totally arbitrary where "thresholds" are placed ... and in conclfict with the pillars and other polcies which I consider signficant more important. Reliability is loved by authors who want to have simple checks if something belongs or not, which is applyable even if you have no clue about the article...which is a sserious problem.)Shaddim (talk) 18:19, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
There are clear definitions, and they are outlined at WP:IRS. Please stop denying the existence of this guideline. Thank you. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 17:54, 14 January 2017 (UTC)