User talk:Stigharder

Re Fashion Net, Lumiere (magazine), and Stig Harder

Hello, Stigharder. This is in reply to your message on my talk page. Like Justlettersandnumbers, I'm afraid have no interest in aiding the re-creation of these articles, especially after the shenanigans involving undisclosed conflict of interest and multiple accounts. Two of these accounts (User:Shousokutsuu and this current one) explicitly state that they are operated by Stig Harder, presumably you. Then there is User:Haadaa, whose account name is a phonetic spelling of your surname and who has bizarrely accused two long-term editors of being affiliates of your company's competitors. Haadaa has also repeatedly used the pronouns "we" and "us" in reference to you and your companies, yet refused to clarify what was meant by that despite requests from multiple editors [1], [2]. In addition, Haadaa claimed at the Conflict of interest notice board: "We, ourselves, have no interest in promoting any of the companies, brands or institutions whose articles we edited or created". This convinces no one given the editing patterns of these three accounts.

You are welcome to try Wikipedia:Deletion review, but as Justlettersandnumbers said, you are probably going to get some strong push-back. I had a look at the new links to your website where copies of various press articles are hosted. They are largely brief mentions of Fashion Net and Lumiere in pieces about fashion websites in general. This feature on Stig Harder in Henne, seems to be the sole source devoted to him and looks an awful lot like a PR piece. I very much doubt if contributors to the Deletion review discussion would find that these sources are sufficient to establish notability and overturn the AfD decisions on the three former Wikipedia articles listed above. But I can't predict this with certainty. If you do take these decisions to DR, I strongly suggest that you come clean about the nature of the multiple accounts, explicitly declare the conflict of interest, henceforth stick to one account only, and refrain from editing as a logged out IP. You need to read this page very carefully, especially the section on "Inappropriate uses of alternative accounts". Voceditenore (talk) 12:39, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Dear Voceditenore,

Oh, no.... This account is the first that represents me as an individual and that nobody else but myself will be using. I did indeed set up Shousokutsuu a long time ago as I hoped to put in place an article on the Vegalitarian Society, but I had no idea about your policies at that time; the account was later taken over by Wikipedia "experts" (which I understand now they weren't). Haadaa was set up by my company, not me. I apologize for the paranoia they seem to have expressed. As for myself and your notability requirements, doesn't the Cooper Hewitt exhibition establish that all by itself? https://web-beta.archive.org/web/19970215142503/http://mixingmessages.si.edu:80/mm/dialogue/comm5.jhtml;MSkKN8ldt0c3R4wNNhG9EntHIMA793ySd5zF1QNZss8m0lA and https://www.stigharder.com/media/cooper-hewitt-1997.jpg

Thank you so much for your help, Voceditenore.

Stigharder (talk) 21:46, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

The article in Henne wasn't promotional; it was an interview. They got in touch with me while I was living in Barcelona:

Extended content

"Sørli, Tone Tuhus" <tone.tuhus.sorli@henne.no> SV: Vedr. mini-intervju Stig Harder <harder@fashion.net> Ok, mail er greit det. Da sender jeg deg rett og slett noen sporsmål her. Jeg trenger svar fra deg innen førstkomende mandag morgen: Beskriv jobben din. Hvordan startet det hele, hvorfor ble du interessert i kombinasjonen mote og Internett? Var du med fra starten, eller kom du inn på et senere tidspunkt? Hva er mest spennende med det du gjør? Hva er planene videre? Vant dere pris i San Fransisco? Er det noen episoder som du husker som spesielt morsomme eller minneverdige fra jobben din? Jeg trenger også noen faktaopplysninger om deg: Hvor gammel er du? Hvor kommer du fra? Hva gjorde du før du begynte å jobbe for Lumiere (Det vil si utdannelse, ev. andre jobber osv.)? Når flyttet du til Barcelona? Ok - det skulle vel dekke det meste, tror jeg. Jeg mailer deg uansett et ferdig tekstutkast, så du kan se hvordan vi tenker oss intervjuet. Jeg trenger et bilde av deg. Har du noe du kan sende meg høyoppløselig (300 dpi)? Snakkes/Mailes! Hilsen Tone i HENNE ______________________ HENNE PB 1169 Sentrum N - 0107 Oslo Tone Tuhus Sørli journalist/redigerer telefon +47 21 30 11 08 telefaks +47 21 30 12 16 tone.tuhus.sorli@henne.no Opprinnelig melding----- Fra: Stig Harder [SMTP:harder@fashion.net] Sendt: 13. juni 2002 19:20 Til: Sørli, Tone Tuhus Emne: Re: Vedr. mini-intervju Hei Tone, Det er mye bedre om vi kan gjøre dette via email. ) Stig Harder Hei! Jeg er journalist i magasinet Henne og snakket akkurat med Trude Kolaas. Hun har sendt oss en mail der hun skriver om deg og nettstedet for Lumiere. Jeg har lyst til aa ta en liten prat med deg, og ringer deg i morgen fredag 14.6. mellom 10.00 og 11.00. Håper du er aa treffe da. Vennlig hilsen Tone Tuhus Sorli ______________________ HENNE PB 1169 Sentrum N - 0107 Oslo telefon +47 21 30 11 08 telefaks +47 21 30 12 16 tone.tuhus.sorli@henne.no

Stigharder (talk) 22:35, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for finally clarifying the account situation. I'll contact an administrator tomorrow to have the accounts User:Shousokutsuu and User:Haadaa indefinitely blocked. Shared accounts are not allowed. When you say the first account was taken over by "Wikipedia 'experts'", I assume you mean you hired people to edit and create articles about you and your companies? Really, do not do this again. It merely adds to the impression that you are using Wikipedia solely for self-promotion. Paid editors can be spotted a mile away, and as you have seen, such "experts" are exactly the opposite of what they claim to be. I'll address the issue of the Henne article tomorrow as well. Voceditenore (talk) 17:10, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Dear Voceditenore,

Not hired, just offering a "favor." Lesson learned.

Stigharder (talk) 20:00, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

In the meanwhile, I really did start fashion on the internet (lots of important people in fashion and arts that witnessed it as it happened can confirm this), but back then, as you see in the tongue-in-cheek "pins & needles" column written by the late Woody Hochswender (http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/nytimes/obituary.aspx?pid=177147207) for Harper's Bazaar at https://www.stigharder.com/media/harpers-bazaar-1995.jpg — published just six months after we launched FASHION NET, the media was curious but didn't yet take the Internet seriously. It wasn't until the year after that the press recognized my accomplishments — and indeed Internet's potential itself as a viable medium, such as TIME Magazine in 1996 (https://www.stigharder.com/media/time-magazine-1996.jpg), New York Times (https://www.stigharder.com/media/new-york-times-1996.jpg) as well as Smithsonian's Cooper Hewitt Design Museum (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/19970215142503/http://mixingmessages.si.edu:80/mm/dialogue/comm5.jhtml;MSkKN8ldt0c3R4wNNhG9EntHIMA793ySd5zF1QNZss8m0lA https://www.stigharder.com/media/cooper-hewitt-1997.jpg).

The US government itself recognizes me as an "alien of extraordinary ability" — my green card is an EB-1A, but I understand a scan of my green card may not be considered a reference on Wikipedia, although I can send it along if you'd like.

Stigharder (talk) 20:10, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Dear Voceditenore,

I found the issue of HENNE that the article was featured in. Here's the photo I took right now.

https://www.stigharder.com/media/henne-magazine-2002.jpg

Warm regards,

Stig

Stigharder (talk) 09:58, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Hello! You may be able to find editors interested in helping you at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Fashion. You never know with us volunteers (wikipedians edit what they damn well please when they damn well please), but one can always ask. Good luck! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:09, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

BTW, here´s a source that might be useful. [3]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:13, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

My advice to you is either to attempt to have the deletions overturned at Deletion Review on the basis of new information or to write a draft article and submit it through the Articles for Creation process. The latter is the preferred route for editors with a conflict of interest, which is clearly the case here. I cannot predict what would happen at a Deletion Review, but you would need to convince the majority of discussants there that the new sources indicate significant coverage in independent, reliable publications to justify the restoration of any or all of the three articles. Alternatively, if you take the AfC draft option, consider writing one article on whichever of the three original topics has the most coverage and include information about the other two in that article. My impression is that Lumière is possibly the one with the most coverage even though it is now defunct. Fashion Net and Stig Harder could then be redirect pages to Lumière if the draft is accepted. Gråbergs Gråa Sång's suggestion to approach Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Fashion is a good one and might help you find editors to collaborate on the draft. However, as was pointed out at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fashion Net, the source he suggested (Fashion Technology: Today and Tomorrow) is not suitable at all since the book simply plagiarises Wikipedia articles. Anyhow, the decision is yours as to which route to try. Wikipedia:Notability (web) also has guidance which you might find helpful. Voceditenore (talk) 09:11, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Voceditenore, did not know that about the book (my thoughts went: Hey! Not selfpublished!). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:29, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Don't worry, Gråbergs Gråa Sång, that book had initially fooled several of us until we dug a little deeper :). Best, Voceditenore (talk) 09:49, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Thank you so much, Gråbergs Gråa Sång and Voceditenore.

I've had the article in HENNE transcribed and translated into English on Google. After having a good look at WP:GNG it seems this article fulfills all requirements for notability. What do you think?

NORSKTOPPEN:

Gründer på nett

Han har bodd i Los Angeles, New York, Paris og Barcelona. Kanskje blir Tokyo neste stopp for STIG HARDER (33), nordmannen som lanserte verdens første mote sider på Internett.

Stig Harder er utgiver av to av verdens største og mest kjente mote-nettsteder på Internet: Fashion Net og Lumière. Ideen kom da han flyttet til Paris for åtte år siden. - Først kjøpte jeg et modem og koblet meg på Internett. Jeg søkte etter ordet "fashion", men fant ikke en eneste relevant side. Det var da jeg bestemte meg for å starte. Stig Harder lanserte Fashion Net i 1995. - Dette markerte noe nytt. New York Times, Vogue, Harper's Bazaar, The Guardian, CNN, Le Monde, TIME Magazine...., alle beskrev Internett som det nye mediet for mote. Senere samme år lanserte han Lumière, verdens første elektroniske motemagasin på Internett. Nylig ble Lumière nominert som et av verdens beste mote-nettsteder. I juryen satt blant andre Bjørk og David Bowie. - Før lanseringen snakket jeg med Chambre Syndicale, organisasjonen som arrangerer mote-showene i Paris. Jeg nevnte Lumière og Internet, og de sa spørrende: "Inter...., what?" Da visste jeg at vi fortsatt hadde langt å gå. Men da Chambre Syndicale senere så hva vi hadde laget, sa de: "Wow - it looks just like a magazine!" Det var gøy å vise dem Internett for aller første gang. Stig Harder er født i Flekkefjord. Han har studert grafisk design ved Art Center i Sveits og Los Angeles. Han har jobbet som designer i New York, München og Paris. - I tiden framover skal jeg bruke mesteparten av energien min på å utvikle eksperimentelle og innovative ting på Lumière. Tokyo blir muligens neste stopp - jeg var det i mars og ble veldig imponert. Nå lærer jeg meg japansk. Se mer av Internett-sidene på www.fashion.net og www.lumiere.com. TTS

A translation from Norwegian to English at:

https://translate.google.com/#no/en/NORSKTOPPEN%3A%0A%0AGr%C3%BCnder%20p%C3%A5%20nett%0A%0AHan%20har%20bodd%20i%20Los%20Angeles%2C%20New%20York%2C%20Paris%20og%20Barcelona.%20Kanskje%20blir%20Tokyo%20neste%20stopp%20for%20STIG%20HARDER%20(33)%2C%20nordmannen%20som%20lanserte%20verdens%20f%C3%B8rste%20mote%20sider%20p%C3%A5%20Internett.%0A%0AStig%20Harder%20er%20utgiver%20av%20to%20av%20verdens%20st%C3%B8rste%20og%20mest%20kjente%20mote-nettsteder%20p%C3%A5%20Internet%3A%20Fashion%20Net%20og%20Lumi%C3%A8re.%20Ideen%20kom%20da%20han%20flyttet%20til%20Paris%20for%20%C3%A5tte%20%C3%A5r%20siden.%20-%20F%C3%B8rst%20kj%C3%B8pte%20jeg%20et%20modem%20og%20koblet%20meg%20p%C3%A5%20Internett.%20Jeg%20s%C3%B8kte%20etter%20ordet%20%22fashion%22%2C%20men%20fant%20ikke%20en%20eneste%20relevant%20side.%20Det%20var%20da%20jeg%20bestemte%20meg%20for%20%C3%A5%20starte.%20Stig%20Harder%20lanserte%20Fashion%20Net%20i%201995.%20-%20Dette%20markerte%20noe%20nytt.%20New%20York%20Times%2C%20Vogue%2C%20Harper's%20Bazaar%2C%20The%20Guardian%2C%20CNN%2C%20Le%20Monde%2C%20TIME%20Magazine....%2C%20alle%20beskrev%20Internett%20som%20det%20nye%20mediet%20for%20mote.%20Senere%20samme%20%C3%A5r%20lanserte%20han%20Lumi%C3%A8re%2C%20verdens%20f%C3%B8rste%20elektroniske%20motemagasin%20p%C3%A5%20Internett.%20Nylig%20ble%20Lumi%C3%A8re%20nominert%20som%20et%20av%20verdens%20beste%20mote-nettsteder.%20I%20juryen%20satt%20blant%20andre%20Bj%C3%B8rk%20og%20David%20Bowie.%20-%20F%C3%B8r%20lanseringen%20snakket%20jeg%20med%20Chambre%20Syndicale%2C%20organisasjonen%20som%20arrangerer%20mote-showene%20i%20Paris.%20Jeg%20nevnte%20Lumi%C3%A8re%20og%20Internet%2C%20og%20de%20sa%20sp%C3%B8rrende%3A%20%22Inter....%2C%20what%3F%22%20Da%20visste%20jeg%20at%20vi%20fortsatt%20hadde%20langt%20%C3%A5%20g%C3%A5.%20Men%20da%20Chambre%20Syndicale%20senere%20s%C3%A5%20hva%20vi%20hadde%20laget%2C%20sa%20de%3A%20%22Wow%20-%20it%20looks%20just%20like%20a%20magazine!%22%20Det%20var%20g%C3%B8y%20%C3%A5%20vise%20dem%20Internett%20for%20aller%20f%C3%B8rste%20gang.%20Stig%20Harder%20er%20f%C3%B8dt%20i%20Flekkefjord.%20Han%20har%20studert%20grafisk%20design%20ved%20Art%20Center%20i%20Sveits%20og%20Los%20Angeles.%20Han%20har%20jobbet%20som%20designer%20i%20New%20York%2C%20M%C3%BCnchen%20og%20Paris.%20-%20I%20tiden%20framover%20skal%20jeg%20bruke%20mesteparten%20av%20energien%20min%20p%C3%A5%20%C3%A5%20utvikle%20eksperimentelle%20og%20innovative%20ting%20p%C3%A5%20Lumi%C3%A8re.%20Tokyo%20blir%20muligens%20neste%20stopp%20-%20jeg%20var%20det%20i%20mars%20og%20ble%20veldig%20imponert.%20N%C3%A5%20l%C3%A6rer%20jeg%20meg%20japansk.%20Se%20mer%20av%20Internett-sidene%20p%C3%A5%20www.fashion.net%20og%20www.lumiere.com.%20TTS

Stigharder (talk) 23:01, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Dear Voceditenore,

Did you have a chance to look at this? I hope you can help getting the articles back now that you hopefully have the references you mentioned were lacking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Stig_Harder

Thank you so much for your help.

Warm regards,

Stig

Stigharder (talk) 20:44, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Dear Voceditenore,

I need your support, not the least because you clearly are the most capable editor here (I trust you know I'm right). Please help me get the articles back that were deleted because there weren't sufficient sources online. While there will be more written about me as I continue my work in a less low-profile manner than earlier, I hope Wikipedia will recognize me for pioneering a field that no major media took seriously at the time, but that, because of people like myself, became the most powerful media of them all. I know Wikipedia needs proof of notability and I'm confident there now are sufficient sources for it to be established.

Thank you, Voceditenore.

Soon,

Stig

Stigharder (talk) 23:17, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

• Hello, Stig. I'm sorry it's taken a while to get back to you. I've been very busy on Wikipedia with several articles under development as well as advising a group of music students who are editing Wikipedia as part of their class work. There is nothing I can do get the articles undeleted. As I've said before, there is not enough coverage to justify three articles, and I'm afraid that one 300 word article is not sufficient to justify a separate Wikipedia article about you. The coverage of Fashion Net is even thinner. I think you need to read Wikipedia:Notability (people) much more carefully. There is possibly enough to justify one article (probably on Lumiere via the coverage + 2 Webby Award nominations). Such an article could cover information on yourself and Fashion Net as well.

I suggest you write such an article as a draft and submit it for independent assessment via the Articles for Creation process. This is really your only option, in my view. The chances of restoration via Deletion Review are virtually nil. However, if you do take the Articles for Creation option, remember that only you can edit the draft from this account. Do not share your password with anyone. If any members of your staff want to help you with it, each one must register their own individual account. You can start your draft in using Wikipedia:Article wizard/Ready for submission. Choose the first option "Your article will first be created as a draft stored in the draft space. When you finish, you'll be able to submit it to be reviewed by our volunteers. After a successful review, it will be moved to the article namespace.", enter the title, e.g. Lumiere (magazine) in the adjacent box and click the blue button labelled Create new article draft. Best wishes, Voceditenore (talk) 08:44, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Dear Voceditenore,

Thank you so much for this and also for advising me not to walk straight into a trap at the Deletion Review! :)

I trust I can work with editors there at Wikipedia on the draft rather than doing all of this myself (I wish you could help me write it). I definitely do not wish to involve anyone else related to my companies or that may be motivated to "help." While everything here is related to fashion, it really is about pioneering the Internet by adopting a new medium nobody took seriously at the time and then publishing content there that showed its potential to the press and that truly impressed them too. I'll consult with Jack Schofield (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaschofield/), a writer at at the Guardian who actually witnessed it all as it happened (https://www.stigharder.com/media/guardian-1995.jpg), and ensure this will be a thoroughly objective article that also meets your encyclopedic standards. (I wish I could connect with you on LinkedIn as well; if you'd like to, I'm at https://www.linkedin.com/in/stigharder/.)

In the meanwhile, I'll also be less low-profile than I was in the past, even refusing so far to appear on television. Which reminds me, a photographer of ours showed Paris Première's "Eco, Ecu et quoi?" Lumière's coverage back then of the runway shows in Paris (https://www.stigharder.com/media/paris-premiere-eco-ecu-et-quoi-1996.mp4 at the 00:02:02 mark) when they introduced the Internet itself to their audience.

Also, the Norwegian and French editions of Wikipedia may be interested on writing their own articles on these subjects as well. If you know, what is the correct procedure there?

Thanks again for your help, Voceditenore — talk to you soon!

Warm regards,

Stig

Stigharder (talk) 19:53, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Dear Voceditenore,

Trust you're well!

I'd appreciate if you could take a look at what I wrote to you here and let me know what you think.

Thank you, Voceditenore!

Warm regards,

Stig

Stigharder (talk) 05:55, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Hello Stig. I'm not sure what more advice I can give you. Once again, the notability, i.e. multiple instances of significant in-depth coverage for this topic on your websites and you, remains so marginal (including the Guardian mention) that I honestly do not think it merits more than a slightly expanded entry in Fashion journalism ("The Internet" section) at this point. Given that, and the fact that the topic is well outside my field of interest and that I have multiple other projects I'm working on, I personally cannot work on a draft article. If you are looking for other people to help you with the draft or want a second opinion on the feasibility of such a draft becoming an article, try leaving a note at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Fashion and possibly on related projects such as Wikipedia:WikiProject Websites, and Wikipedia:WikiProject Magazines. Alternatively, you can request that someone write such an article at Wikipedia:Requested articles/Arts and entertainment/Fashion. You might get lucky. As for the Norwegian and French Wikipedias, they also have "Requested articles" pages. See: no:Wikipedia:Ønskelisten and fr:Wikipédia:Articles à créer. The French Wikipedia also has a Fashion project at fr:Projet:Mode. Best wishes, Voceditenore (talk) 10:22, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

Dear Voceditenore,

Thanks again for all of your help.

On July 17th, you told me on your talk page at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Voceditenore&oldid=790981627 that "I am not an administrator. I have no control whatsoever over deleted articles." I replied, "Oh, I assumed you were an administrator — you indeed were the sole person voting for the deletion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Fashion_Net" but instead of answering me, you archived our conversation the next day.

I find this very disturbing. Are you, as you claim, not an administrator with no control over deleted articles? All this time, I assumed you were.

Warm regards,

Stig

Stigharder (talk) 06:58, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

You are simply repeating what you said on my talk page. I am not an adminstrator. You can verify my user rights here. Compare this to the administrator who closed the discussion and deleted the articles here. There were two !votes to "Delete" in the Fashion Net AfD. Mine and the nominator's. The nominator is assumed to be a "Delete" !vote, except in the rare cases where they are filing a discussion on behalf of another editor and make that explicit. There were no !votes to "keep". In my final message to you on my talk page I said:

"Please stop belabouring the fate of the article about your company with me. I am not an administrator. I have no control whatsoever over deleted articles. I have no interest whatsoever in writing fashion articles. I have given you my opinion on the available sources and their likely effect on the article being kept if it's recreated. I have also given you extensive advice on your talk page about your options, including projects that you could ask for further advice. This is the last time I'm going to comment on your deleted article either here or on your talk page."

Yet you continue belabouring the issue. Whether or not I am an administrator is utterly irrelevant to the reasons your articles were deleted. Whether or not you erroneously thought I was an administrator is utterly irrelevant to the reasons your articles were deleted. Please stop posting on my talk page about it. Please stop pinging me to your talk page about it. I have given you extensive advice above on what you can do about your deleted articles. You are free to ignore it. You are free to ask for further advice at Wikipedia:Teahouse. You are free to contact Kurykh, the administrator who deleted your page and query their deletion. You are free to recreate the article without going through Articles for creation, although as I said, you run a considerable risk of it being deleted again and "salted". You are free to ask to for a deletion review, although again, I doubt it would ultimately be successful. However, those are simply my opinions as an experienced editor. Ignore them if you prefer. I now consider this discussion closed. Voceditenore (talk) 08:44, 23 July 2017 (UTC)