Wikipedia:Africa-related regional notice board/Peer review/Toyota War

Toyota War

I originally thought of creating this article just to alleviate the length of Chadian-Libyan conflict; but then I started working at it, trying to make it a good article. This has made me think of the possibility of attempting to make it the first GA in Chad-related topics. All criticisms will be immensely appreciated; in particular, I'm concerned with the prose, as its not my first language, and if there are any repetitions in the exposition. Also, I'm not certain about the lead.--Aldux 21:34, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Kirill Lokshin

Not bad at all. Some things that need work, though:

{{Infobox Military Conflict}} needs to be added.
- I added this with basic information I could find in the article. Needs to be filled out. - Francis Tyers · 22:59, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Are there any images available here? At a minimum, some maps would be very useful.
The lead should, indeed, be longer; two or three paragraphs would probably suffice to provide a stand-alone summary of the article.
The prose isn't bad, per se, but some copyediting by native speakers would probably be helpful.

Kirill Lokshin 22:26, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I brought the images issue up at Talk:Chadian-Libyan conflict. Commons has nothing of use save the garishly colored Aozou Strip image which I added to that article six days ago. Picaroon 22:51, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I'll make a lead that presents a summary of the main events.--Aldux 23:37, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've written down an expanded lead, and given some context.--Aldux 00:04, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Picaroon

I was noticing the same things as Kirill, and have begun acting upon them. Seeing as there is a lack of other images, I've added the Chadian and Libyan flags.
There are also some things which are probably just differences in sentence structure between Italian and English, mainly the placement of phrases - if you check my recent changes, you'll see I've rearranged some sentences.
Seeing as I was the one who suggested you split it off in the first place, I guess I'm to blame for this: there are places where not enough context is provided, or too much familiarity is assumed. I've wikilinked several things already and mentioned who Gaddafi was to try to rectify this. Picaroon 22:47, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Picaroon. I'm not very coonvinced about the flags; there not specific enough, a map, even general, would be probably better. And yes, I keep forgetting that Chad - ahem (euphemism coming) - is not one of the best known countries in the world. I'll try to add some context.--Aldux 23:36, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Francis Tyers

I added the {{Infobox Military Conflict}} — needs to be filled out.
Images would be a blessing. If not, maps would be great.
Do we have the name of the war/conflict in the languages/POV of Chad and Libya?
Stub Hassan Djamous, Jamahiriya Guard,
Prose needs tightening in places. - Francis Tyers · 22:59, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've written a pitiful little stub on Djamous, but Google doesn't turn up enough for this Jamahiriya Guard. Picaroon 23:32, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, perhaps it has another name? - Francis Tyers · 23:43, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In this edit, I changed its spelling from "Jamahiriyyah Guard" because that's a less widely used variant of Jamahiriya (Arabic for "mass-state," IIRC). I guess we should leave it to Aldux, seeing as he has access to the book which mentioned it. Picaroon 23:48, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Jamahiriya Guard is mentioned by Metz and Pollack as a sort of pretorian guard, recruited only amongst Gaddafi's tribal clan. I'll try to work on it, maybe it's called often in the west "Repubblican Guard" or "Presidential Guard" (it may have been disbanded; my info regards the 1980s).--Aldux 23:25, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As for the infobox, I can add some other info not contained yet in the article, and will expand Djamous. As for the Libyan or Chadian name of the conflict, I strongly doubt an estabilished name, as Libya has just removed any memory of this war, while Chad is too small to have developed a specific pov on the question.--Aldux 23:31, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've written a small stub on the Jamahiriyyah Guard. It seems that Fran was correct in suspectng an alternative name was more commonly used, and the name tends to be Revolutionary Guard.--Aldux 18:56, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cool, looks like a good stub. - Francis Tyers · 22:18, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pictures / Photographs

Here are some links to photographs — any chance of having a fair use rationale for any of them? - Francis Tyers · 23:16, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Libyan Wars, 1980-1989, Part 3
Libyan Wars, 1980-1989, Part 6
Strategy Game
Another one
Chadian troops reconquer northern Chad (with watermarks — numbers from '2' to '27' at the end) Thumbs

Should be easy to get at least a couple, using {{historicalphoto}}; they're pretty much all non-reproducible. Kirill Lokshin 23:18, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Aye. I guess its just down to which ones to pick. I'll look around for more and post them here then we can make a choice of the most appropriate. You're right they're non-reproducible, it would be great to find some PD-US-gov, but I think it highly unlikely :( - Francis Tyers · 23:20, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'd focus on the photographs that actually show combat action; they're likely to be a bit more meaningful that the generic French-plane-flying ones. Kirill Lokshin 23:24, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely. Preferably one from each side. - Francis Tyers · 23:28, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Something like this one would be good — no watermark and it shows the namesake of the war. - Francis Tyers · 23:30, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've never been any good with images - but if some can be used, maybe even the planes may be helpful for the connected Opération Epervier and Opération coup de poing. If some image could be found also for the Chadian-Libyan conflict article, it would be great, as it too will probably be passed through a peer review.--Aldux 23:20, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(de-indent)

Ok, I added one to the infobox. As fair as fair use (*cough* *spit*) goes, I think we have a fair claim to this one. It would be nice to remove the black border, but I'm not sure if that counts as a derivative work. If anyone wants to find a photo for the Libyan side that would be good. - Francis Tyers · 09:55, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

BanyanTree

Specific points

~~What is the CDR? Also, please add that article to the disambiguation page CDR.~~
~~"France answered with a second airstrike" - what was the first airstrike? needs context~~
~~"affected the perception of Libya as a significant regional military power" - perception of who? international or domestic observers?~~

General points

There is a definite need for more background over why this war is happening and what happened in the previous phases. One tightly written paragraph may be enough.
I've copyedited a bit and added the garish map mentioned by Picaroon above. There are a couple of editors who have created battle maps in the past whom may be willing to create custom maps if you approach them and point out sources.
Were there any economic or humanitarian effects, e.g. refugees and IDPs?

Otherwise, I think it is quite good. I dislike massive articles greatly and this gives a reasonable amount of detail (though I would like more context and operational-level detail) in a reasonable length. - Banyan Tree 01:04, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I found what the CDR is via a google search for cdr chad libya - it's something called the Democratic Revolutionary Council. I'll add that to the dab page. Picaroon 21:54, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I just wanted to thank everybody for the fantastic work done; I would never have expected the reviews to arrive so fast, and with so many edits to the article thanks! :-) It's a bit late here, so I'll only briefly awnser.

Regarding the specific points raised by BT,

Picaroon is correct regarding the CDR; I'll create an article on the miltia commanded by Ahmat Acyl.
Oops, the first one is the 1986 Opération coup de poing. As this article was originally just a section of a bigger article, what before was obvious is not anymore so.
"affected the perception of Libya as a significant regional military power" - shall change to "affected the international perception of Libya as a significant regional military power"

As for the general points

You're write, I'll try a paragraph lifted from the material in Chadian-Libyan conflict
As for the maps, this French website has some that would be very interesting If I could obtain them [[1]]. On wikipedia there's this meeting between Habré and Miterrand during the Toyota War [2], and maybe this map of Chad could be useful [3], as many of the towns mentioned on the article are there (Aouzou, Faya-Largeau, Fada, the capital, the Libyan base of Maaten as-Sara)
Regarding humanitarian effects, I know very little, mainly through a few hints given by Nolutshungu. Remember that the war to retake northern Chad took only 3 months, and that northern Chad is all desert (i.e., very few inhabitants).
- Fair enough, though a sentence describing the environment and terrain (and lack of inhabitants) would be nice for the intro. - Banyan Tree 00:48, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What do you mean by "more operational-level detail"?--Aldux 23:12, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

By operational level detail, I think he's referring to details of specific skirmishes/battles, ie formations, human losses, etc... I suspect that there won't be much information on these, because it seems unlikely to have written down in detail. Picaroon 23:44, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I do have some of this sort of info, especially from Pollack, but I didn't want to go too much in detail because I was projecting to write Battle of Bir Kora, Battle of Ouadi Doum, Battle of Aouzou, Battle of Maaten as-Sarra and reference/expand Battle of Fada.--Aldux 23:50, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A brief summary of the course of the war, with links to the battle would be great. - Banyan Tree 00:48, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

When you say "a brief summary of the war", you mean a summary of the events already present in the article in the lead? As for the links to the battles, sure.--Aldux 22:40, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Automated

Please see automated peer review suggestions here. Thanks, APR _t 23:04, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Buckshot06

No mention, even a short one, of the UN Aouzou Strip Observer Group - should be at least mentioned briefly. Buckshot06 09:12, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]