Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Farran Zerbe/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Buidhe via FACBot (talk) 25 November 2021 [1].

Farran Zerbe[edit]

Nominator(s): Wehwalt (talk) 23:47, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about... a major figure in numismatic history, if a controversial one. He seems to remain controversial, as in 2021, the American Numismatic Association took his name off its major award, some 110 years after the events in question. Enjoy.Wehwalt (talk) 23:47, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Image review I don't see any major issues, willing to believe that The Numismatist was not copyrighted. I made some adjustments to avoid sandwiching and strongly urge the 1908 photograph to be used as the lead image as the current lead image is low quality. (t · c) buidhe 03:00, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've done that. Thanks for the review.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:02, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Usernameunique[edit]

Early life

  • By many accounts — Suggest rephrasing this (and making an appropriate adjustment in the next sentence) to something like "By many accounts, including as told by Zerbe in his later years,"
  • silver French 50-centime piece — Anything to link to?
We don't seem to have an article that would suit. Zerbe exhibited a 50 centime piece he said was the one, but I've not seen a picture of it. Since France changed its coins in the early 1870s after the deposition of Napoleon III, I can't make assumptions as to which half franc piece this was.
  • John P. Lupia III — Worthy of a red link?
He doesn't seem notable
  • the story Zerbe told in 1903 — What were the circumstances?
  • Following up on this. Where did he tell the story—an article, a speech, something else? --Usernameunique (talk) 02:59, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry I missed this. The source doesn't say. I ran a search of The Numismatist for 1903 and came up with nothing relevant.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:16, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Numismatist of the world's fairs

  • In the first years of the 20th century, Zerbe began to show his traveling exhibit, "Money of the World" — Generally speaking, this section is fairly hazy on how Zerbe got started, and gained traction, in the coin-collecting world. I realize that much of this may be lost to time, but are there any more details that could be added?
I'll look, but numismatics was a very small pond at the time and someone competent and self-promoting could make their way to the top. As did Zerbe, in only seven years.
I found something in the sources that says much the same thing that I just said but perhaps that fills the gap.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:01, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some collectors lent items for the exhibit and could not get them back — Why?
It is implied that Zerbe kept them and did not/would not return them
  • he felt was justified — He felt, or he claimed?
Tweaked.
  • he also sold them mounted in spoons, jewelry and other items — I realize there are a lot of images in the article already, but is there a good one of one of these items?
We have permission from Heritage Auctions to use their photographs, so it wouldn't be difficult to add one. I think it's a bit far afield though.
  • When he was not busy with his duties — What duties?
Clarified.
  • and found the New Orleans Mint temporarily not striking coins — I'm not really sure what this means. How did he "find" it not striking coins?
When he visited, they were not striking any coins. This wasn't unusual for the mints as they tended to shut down in the summer pre-air conditioning and the New Orleans Mint had only reopened in 1879 as there was such a need to strike silver dollars under the Bland-Allison Act and this had ended in 1904 when the last of the bullion obtained under the Sherman Silver Purchase Act of 1890 had been minted, and the more modern and efficient Denver Mint was effectively taking its place. It finally closed in 1909.
  • a profit of about $16,000 — What is that in current dollars? {{inflation}} should help.

President of the ANA

  • Zerbe aided those affected by the earthquake — How?
The source does not elaborate.
  • After serving three years, with Zerbe as first vice president ... with Henri Buck as first vice president ... with John Henderson as first vice president — It's "First Vice President" (capitalized) above.
Standardized.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:43, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • setting a membership goal of 3,000 — How many did it have at the time?
Less than 500. Clarified.
  • There were complaints — By whom?
The source isn't specific, but as we soon get into the conflict with Elder, I think we can do without.
  • got the membership to approve a dues increase to improve The Numismatist — Even though the ANA wasn't responsible for the publication?
It was still its journal, although it didn't have ownership. Without its services, the organization isn't much.
  • President Theodore Roosevelt appointed Zerbe to serve on that year's Assay Commission. — May as well give a brief description of the Assay Commission.
Added.
  • a "long price" for the periodical — No further details, I assume?
Not that I can find.

1915 Panama-Pacific International Exposition

There was also a medal, mentioned in the article on the coins though not covered in detail.
  • the Mint's exhibit — The Mint also had an exhibit, or is this referring to Zerbe's exhibit?
The Mint/Department of the Treasury had its own area. I think this is clear. The Mint's space is mentioned twice.
  • Zerbe was present at the San Francisco Mint for the first ceremonial striking of the octagonal $50 piece — When?
Added.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:46, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • He felt ... and felt ... who he felt — Overuse of the same verb. More importantly, however, we can't know how Zerbe felt; we can know only how he said he felt.
Tweaked.
"thought" and "believed" have the same problem—we know what people said or wrote, but just because they say they think or believe something doesn't necessarily make it true. --Usernameunique (talk) 03:10, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The source cites a 1918 article by Zerbe, so I've been explicit.

Later years, death and appraisal

  • returned to the road and exhibitions — What does this mean?
He would make arrangements to show Money of the World at different banks.
  • Lesher Referendum Dollars — Worth a red link?
  • Bryan money — Worth a red link?
Added in both cases.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:46, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • America's influence for peace — What does this mean?
Tweaked.
  • a paper from Farran Zerbe ... Zerbe's letter — Paper, or letter?
Done.
  • and by two brothers — Might be worth mentioning any siblings in "Early life".
This is the sole reference to siblings I have found.
  • Oglivie deemed him — Not yet introduced, so a full name and brief description should be given.
  • His noteworthy achievements have truly earned him the title, 'Dean of American Numismatists'". — If this is a full sentence, the period can go inside one or both of the quotation marks.
The above two done.

Wehwalt, comments above. --Usernameunique (talk) 18:28, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Due to travel, it may be a few days before I get back to this.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:24, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think I've gotten to everything. Thanks for the review.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:46, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good, adding my support. --Usernameunique (talk) 04:14, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments and source review from Grapple X[edit]

Nothing major here, will also look at refs

  • Pricing them at $3, a price he stated was justified because regular-issue gold dollars commanded a premium, he also sold them mounted in spoons, jewelry and other items—First I think we've "pricing ... price" a little close together but also I'm not sure the source supports the idea they were sold mounted: he advertised a wide range of bangles, charms, stickpins, broaches and spoon handles free with each coin ordered is how CoinWeek words it, which I would read as accompaniments rather than affixtures. If there's another mention of mounting it could be appended otherwise I'd suggest a rewording here.
Bowers' 1992 book in the refs at p. 603 states, "In an effort to increase revenue, Zerbe came up with the idea of mounting gold dollars into souvenir brooches and pins; and, apparently, quite a few were sold in this manner to those who attended the fair in 1904." Added as additional source. Anthony Swiatek's 2011 book I've used in commemorative coin articles concurs and displays one of them and the original box.
That works for me.
  • Zerbe's activities at Portland yielded him a profit of about $16,000 (equivalent to $460,859 in 2020)—Nothing wrong with this but a use of the same inflationary aside earlier might be useful too; it's potentially more accessible for readers to know just how much walking-around money $3 was for example. I wouldn't use it in every instance (I don't think converting $3 and then $2.50 shortly thereafter is needed for example)
I've added a couple.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:36, 5 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are a few mentions throughout to unspecified "research". Numismatics is not my forte or anything but this might stand to be glossed a little for the lay reader; is there any specific mention of what Zerbe was researching (especially in SF/LA)?
There is, and I've added some information. Regarding LA, it just says "additional research on old coins".--Wehwalt (talk) 21:41, 5 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Much better now; thank you.
  • Although details are not clear, it seems evident that Zerbe caused the ANA membership rolls to be padded by adding new members ... Is this related or unrelated to the earlier mention that 364 people joined the ANA during Zerbe's two-year tenure, many sponsored by Zerbe himself?
Probably a connection but not drawn by the source.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:45, 5 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Alt text for the images used throughout would be beneficial; there is some for the infobox image but not the others.
Added.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:08, 5 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sources (as of this revision)
  • Ref 30 is being used, in part, to support the claim that the PCNS "fosters a strong tradition of research and literary publication", but as this is a primary source I'm not sure I'd ascribe this in wikipedia's voice. Could we word this to show it's their stated aim, or add a secondary attribution?
  • Ref 34 might be better served listing Numismatic Bibliomania Society as a publisher; as I can see "The E-Sylum" is the web version of their Asylum publication.
  • Likewise I would replace "pdxcoinclub.org" as the credit for ref 27 with the Williamette Coin Club.
Done both of these.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:19, 5 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unable to access "coin-gallery.com" through work's firewall so I can't check its credentials as a source, although a numismatics website being flagged like this does give me some concern. Who/what are the publishers of this resource?
I've replaced the source, modifying the text a bit to conform.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:50, 5 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I think I've gotten everything. Thanks for the reviews.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:19, 5 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Changes all look good to me. An interesting article, too. Happy to support on this basis, and to consider a source review passed. ᵹʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ꭗ 22:51, 5 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from TRM[edit]

  • Could link "numismatist" in the lead.
  • "World's Fairs ... at Portland" our article indicates that this was not an official World's Fair, perhaps a footnote.
  • "Pennsylvania in " comma after Pennsylvania.
  • Interestingly, lead starts by calling him "coin collector and dealer" but his occupation in the infobox is given as numismatist. Is that really an occupation?
I'd say, given the circumstances of his life, he made it such. Coins were his career, not only as a dealer but through his exhibitions.
  • "the U.S. Mint for " link.
  • "the ANA, The Numismatist from" comma before "from".
  • "been done on" conducted instead of the clunky "done".
I've simply removed the word "done".
  • "in 1939. In 1969" repetitive.
  • "has been awarded by" on what basis?
I think the information that it is the association's highest honor is enough for lead purposes, and there is a link.
  • "born in" in lead vs "born at" in prose, suggest you stick with one (the former).
  • "the public schools" link because public school has a different meaning in other parts of the world.
  • "50-centime piece" link? Or even just for centime.
  • "$.25" I find this awkward, could we not just say 25 cents?
  • "Numismatist of the world's fairs" why not World's Fairs? (the lead says "the World's Fairs in"...)
  • "member #197" we avoid using the "hash" symbol to represent "number".
  • Link Bureau of the Mint.
  • "Pricing them ... a price..." repetitive.
  • "issue gold dollars commanded" you link that here, but previously you mention "gold one-dollar pieces", are these not the same thing?
Yes, I am being more explicit as to what they are for the benefit of people who may not know. Since our gold dollar article only deals with the regular issue, 1849 to 1889, and does not attempt to deal with the commemorative ones that were struck after the denomination's demise, I link when the regular issue is explicitly mentioned.
  • "to $460,859" probably too "precise", suggest nearest $1000 would suffice.

That takes me to "President of the ANA", more to come. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 16:04, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Up to date.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:34, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "aided those affected by the earthquake" in what sense?
The source is silent as to specifics.
  • "in Norfolk, Virginia and" comma after Virginia.
  • "also featured lectures ... that also featured" repetitive.
  • "Monroe, Michigan and" comma after Michigan.
  • "be a disorganized mess" bit POV, maybe just "be disorganized".
  • "his "Money of the World" exhibit" sometimes the title is in quotes, sometimes it isn't. I would be consistent across the whole article.
I've left the first one in quotes to make it clear to the reader that this is a title.
  • "18,000,000" -> "18 million".
  • "the fifty-centimes piece" above you call it a 50-centime piece (so numeral and singular), suggest consistency.
  • "the $50 was" +coin.
  • You don't link Colorado but you do link Chicago, I would adopt a consistent approach to this.
  • "democracy... was" non-breaking space before the ellipsis.
  • "World" in 1926" perhaps "two years earlier" to avoid a three-peat of "in YEAR".
  • "made Historian of" why capital H?
  • "its highest honor" ok you declined to describe it further in the lead, but perhaps here, what is it awarded for?
  • Wouldn't the Numismatic Hall of Fame be notable?
  • Ref 31, websites normally in italics, but why would this just be publisher = Pacific Coast Numismatic Society?
  • Some online sources have access-dates, some don't, I would be consistent.
The ones that do not are images of pages from a journal. Per WP:ACCESSDATE, "It is not required for linked documents that do not change. For example, access-date is not required for links to copies of published research papers accessed via DOI or a published book, but should be used for links to news articles on commercial websites (these can change from time to time, even if they are also published in a physical medium)."

That's it from me. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 10:43, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I think I've got everything.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:22, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Great, it's in good shape and even to a complete numismatist noob, it's a very interesting article. I'm happy to support. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 08:34, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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