Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Lionel Matthews/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 30 May 2020 [1].

Lionel Matthews[edit]

Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:15, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is another instalment in my series on South Australian Victoria and George Cross recipients. Matthews was decorated during the WWII Malayan campaign, and was captured at Singapore. He then established an intelligence network within the Sandakan POW camp, which facilitated escapes among other things. He was eventually betrayed, tortured and finally executed, after he refused to give up any information about his network. He was posthumously awarded the George Cross for his gallant and distinguished service. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:15, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review:

  • You are not consistent in whether you put "Australian Capital Territory" after "Canberra" in the bibliography.
  • Do you mean to give a city for The News or is "South Australia" good enough?
  • If the book in "Further reading" is about Matthews, and it's the only book about Matthews I see, then why do you not use it as a source?
  • It is written by his son (a journalist) and is possibly self-published (that is one of Seaview Press' main lines), so I thought it wasn't independent enough of the subject to be used in the article. I can remove it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:18, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I might append a parenthetical to that effect.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:34, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's it. Otherwise the sources seem of appropriate quality and are properly cited.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:52, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for taking a look, Wehwalt. Just one query. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:18, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by CPA-5[edit]

  • Lionel Colin Matthews, GC, MC (15 August 1912 – 2 March 1944) Shouldn't it be "Captain Lionel Colin Matthews, GC, MC (15 August 1912 – 2 March 1944)"?
  • Link or pipe World War II, Singapore, Japanese to the Empire of Japan, 2/29th Battalion.
  • officer of the 27th Brigade during the Malayan Campaign --> "officer of the 27th Brigade during the Malayan campaign"
  • sent to the Sandakan POW camp in British North Borneo Maybe add "occupied" before British? It looks a little bit misleading why he was sent to an Allied country as POW.
  • On 26 December 1935 he married (Lorna) Myrtle Lane Why is Lorna between the bracket?
  • working as a packer. In 1937–38, Lionel --> "working as a packer. In 1937–1938, Lionel"
  • The 8th Division Signals embarked aboard the RMS Queen Mary for Singapore Maybe introduce her?
  • The 27th Brigade was then committed to the Malayan Campaign following --> "The 27th Brigade was then committed to the Malayan campaign following"
  • linked to several key figures including Dr J. P. Taylor, an Australian Per MOS:DOCTOR
  • make contact with Filipino resistance fighters Link Filipino resistance?
  • Matthews had gained the trust of the Governor of North Borneo and who is he?
  • four Chinese members of Matthews' intelligence --> "four Chinese members of Matthews's intelligence"
  • Matthews' body was exhumed and reinterred in the Labuan War Cemetery --> "Matthews's body was exhumed and reinterred in the Labuan War Cemetery"
  • Matthews' older brother Geoffrey commanded the 9th Battalion in the latter --> "his older brother Geoffrey commanded the 9th Battalion in the latter"
  • Matthews' Military Cross was received by his nine-year-old son --> "Matthews's Military Cross was received by his nine-year-old son"
  • @Peacemaker67: I disagree, it maybe is optional to use but in the Apostrophe's article many sources "recommend" to use an extra s. Unless the singular noun (this case a given name) is too awkward to say or too difficult to pronounce. The name "Matthews" isn't hard to pronounce unless you see it as awkward (even though "Matthews" is a normal English name) to not give it an extra s. I think normal English names should use an extra s while names from let's say Greek or other foreign languages or from Classical era which are too awkward to look at or are too hard to pronounce shouldn't have an extra s. I also realised most of the exceptions and examples are names from the Classical era. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 08:50, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, then we'll have to agree to disagree CPA-5, as the requirement for an extra s is not made out in Australian grammar rules. The relevant rule is that "names consisting of more than one syllable only take the apostrophe", page 86 of the Commonwealth Style Guide. There are a number of conflicting rules regarding this, and either is acceptable. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:48, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Matthews' George Cross, Military Cross and service medals --> "His George Cross, Military Cross and service medals"
  • No, just some bad reading moments.
  • The police passed them information, maps, a revolver, radio parts and medical supplies Is it not "their" or is it meant to be "the"?

That's anything from me. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 14:31, 23 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review as always, CPA-5. I reckon I've addressed all your points. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 12:24, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
G'day CPA-5, I think I've addressed all your additional comments. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:37, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looks good to go. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 10:32, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Zawed[edit]

  • In the infobox, shouldn't the branch be Australian Army? Also suggest adding 27th Brigade as the unit with which he served.
  • "In 1937–38, Lionel...": suggest "From 1937 to 1938, Lionel..."
  • "All intelligence that was gathered was passed to Matthews and organised.": It is not clear to me how the intelligence was organised; for distribution?
  • Generally intelligence is collected, collated, analysed and disseminated, the source says collated, so have replaced with that and linked. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:41, 8 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Matthews had gained the trust of...": This sentence uses Matthews twice. Suggest starting it with "Having gained the trust of...."

This is a pretty tight article, minimal issues found. I assume you don't use Matthews (in further reading) as he isn't an independent source. It is a shame there isn't more on his activities during the fighting in Malaya and Singapore but that is not surprising seeing as he was a relatively junior officer. I have Brune's book on Singapore and had a quick look for Matthews in the index but he isn't mentioned. Zawed (talk) 10:24, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I checked my sources on the Malayan campaign and the fall of Singapore, and he didn't get a mention (in the indexes at least). I haven't used David Matthews because of the fact that he is Lionel's son (not independent of the subject per RS), even though he is a retired journalist and the book isn't overly hagiographical beyond what independent sources say about Matthews. It is also unclear if it is actually self-published, as Seaview do both legit publishing and self-publishing. But I think it is worth including for anyone who is interested. Thanks for taking a look, Zawed. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:41, 8 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Happy to support this. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 09:31, 8 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - pass[edit]

  • "File:Matthews-VX24587-crop.jpg": the source doesn't work for me.

Gog the Mild (talk) 11:47, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is an unsecure url which can throw up a warning message, but I've just replaced the url with a better one, should work now. You just have to click through to page three. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:59, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
My PC, phone, iPad and laptop all get the same warning message, with no option - that I can find - to override it. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:42, 9 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I tracked down the image the hard way and have replaced the link. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:54, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All images are appropriately licenced, positioned, captioned and alt texted. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:54, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley[edit]

  • "the brigade moved to Jemaluang,[7] as the 8th Division under Major General Gordon Bennett". The comma looks wrong to me here.
  • "The 27th Brigade was then committed to the Malayan campaign following the Japanese invasion of Malaya in December 1941, although the initial stages of the fighting were in the north, away from the Australians' area of responsibility."The order of statements seems wrong here. Maybe something like "In December 1941 the Japanese invaded Malaya, and the 27th Brigade was committed to the Allied resistance in the Malayan campaign, although the initial stages of the fighting were in the north, away from the Australians' area of responsibility."
  • "the brigade temporarily assumed command of several British units" Surely only a person not an organisation can assume command?
  • " nearly 1,500 Australian prisoners-of-war (POW)" (POWs)?
  • "The Japanese transferred the civilian internees from Berhala Island to the Batu Lintang camp near Kuching in Sarawak in January 1943." Why is this relevant?
  • because prior to this point the British North Borneo Constabulary had been effectively controlled by the interned governor (under Japanese supervision), and now its command passed to Matthews. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:35, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Throughout their confinement, Matthews had encouraged the other suspects, and had refused to divulge any information about their activities." The citation below says associates rather than suspects. Were other people involved who were not arrested and did Matthews' fellow prisoners also stand firm under torture?
  • suspects is the term used by Cowley. It is implied that because Matthews didn't give them up, others avoided arrest, but nothing says it explicitly, likewise re: the fellow prisoners. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:35, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "impertability" Typo?
Support. Dudley Miles (talk) 08:25, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by JennyOz[edit]

Hi PM, I only have a couple of typos and suggestion to make...

  • Lionel and Lorna had one child, Lionel David.[3] - as you call him only David in last para, treat as you did for Myrtle, ie brackets around Lionel? (or 'known as David')
  • Major General Gordon Bennett. - Major general (Australia) (or was it not adopted at that time?)
  • mortar fire and serial bombardment - typo aerial
  • intelligence that was gathered was passed - could drop "that was" to avoid 2 x "was"
  • that was gathered was passed to Matthews and collated. - then collated? ie Matthews are Wells etc collated it?
  • and, with the departure of the internees - perhaps insert civilian again here for clarity
  • Matthews' body was exhumed and reinterred in the Labuan War Cemetery in the same year. - "same year" not clear here, perhaps move this sentence in front of "As well as the Military Cross..." (if it means 1944)
  • optimism and impertability [sic] were - can't we just fix it to 'imperturbability' as MoS allows? (as you did for Phillipines). Imho, the sic doesn't help understand what word it should have been.
  • Refs Cowley Australian capital Territory - cap C

That's it, thanks, JennyOz (talk) 06:40, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much for taking a look, JennyOz! All done I think. Regards, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:23, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
All good, happy to support. Thanks for another telling of such a fine Australian. JennyOz (talk) 08:54, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@FAC coordinators: this one is travelling well, can I have dispensation for a fresh nom please? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:29, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, go ahead. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:19, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments & support by Pendright[edit]

Greetings, PM! Shortly, I expect to add my two-cents worth. Pendright (talk) 00:40, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lead:

  • After the war he was posthumously awarded the George Cross in recognition of his gallant and distinguished services while a POW in Japanese hands
  • "After the war" seems to fit the definition of a introductory phrase
  • Do you mean it needs a comma?
<>Yes, it’s what I meant but did not say – sorry! On the assumption that you agree, I’ve added the comma - undo if you feel otherwise. Pendright (talk) 01:25, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Early life:

  • In his spare time he was assistant scoutmaster at 1st Kensington Sea Scouts from 1931, excelled at swimming, and was a handy amateur boxer.
  • "he was assistant scoutmaster": an article is needed betwen was and assistant, either specific or nonspecific?
  • Consdier adding the word and after "1931," and remove the comma after swinmming.
  • In 1930 he enlisted in the part-time Militia and served with the 10th Battalion, then transferred to the Royal Australian Naval Reserve and trained as a signalman.
  • Militia - does not seem to fit as a proper noun?
Okay - Pendright (talk) 01:25, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consider a semicolon after Battalion in place of the comma.

World War II:

  • He transferred from the Militia to the all-volunteer ...
Militia - same as above
As above. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:58, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Malayan ... :

  • ... due to growing concerns about war with Japan.
Add "the" between about and war
went with "possible war with Japan" as there was no war at the time. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:58, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Japanese advance continued and eventually the 27th Brigade withdrew to Simpang Renggam through Yong Peng and Ayer Hitam.
Add a comma after continued
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:58, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • By the end of January the Allied forces were withdrawn to Singapore and defensive preparations began to repel a Japanese assault across the Johore Strait.
Add a comma after Sngapore
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:58, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Battle of Singapore:

  • After the Malayan campaign, the 27th Brigade took part in the defence of Singapore, initially defending the Causeway area.
Consider this: After the Malayan campaign, the 27th Brigade initially took part in the defence of Singapore by defending the Causeway area.
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:58, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The initial Japanese assault began on the night of 8/9 February, and fell largely on the 22nd Brigade's sector, where two Japanese divisions landed during the Battle of Sarimbun Beach.
Because initially was used in the previous sentence, you might wish to use first instead of inital here?
deleted it instead. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:58, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Prisoner of war:

  • Once they arrived, Matthews set up a complex intelligence-gathering network, linked to several key figures including J. P. Taylor, an Australian doctor in charge of the local hospital, as well as Europeans interned on nearby Berhala Island.
If the comma after network were replaced with that it would seem to complete the thought. And a semicolon after figures would join the independent clauses.
Elegant, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me)
  • Having gained the trust of the Governor of North Borneo, Robert Smith, who had been interned nearby and, with the departure of the civilian internees, Matthews was placed in effective command of the British North Borneo Constabulary despite being a POW.
At 41 words, many might consider this a long sentence. That said, deleting the comma after and would seems to improve the flow of the phrase, or perhaps you would consider tweaking it a bit?
Have tweaked it, see whether you think I've improved it?
Okay - Pendright (talk) 01:25, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Pendright (talk) 21:06, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks so much for your review, Pendright. You always improve my prose and punctuation in particular. A couple of queries above. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:58, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Peacemaker67: I'm happy to support this FA nmination. BTW, I do appreciate your kind words. Regards - Pendright (talk) 01:25, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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