Wikipedia:Peer review/Valley Parade/archive1

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Valley Parade

This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because I've put a lot of work in to try and get it up to same standard as other FAs for stadiums, including Portman Road and Priestfield Stadium and would like to know what further improvements can be made.

Thanks, Peanut4 (talk) 22:27, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Comments by User:Dweller
  • Why are co-ordinates in article twice? First appearance shows in slightly odd place for me in Firefox - hovering on the grey underline of the article name
    • Just copying the two stadia FAs above as stated. In IE, it's below the line, in firefox, on the line. Not sure how to change it. Peanut4 (talk) 19:03, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I think the name of the stadium in the article name, lead and infobox needs some defense. Is the ground really called one thing but its full name another? Or is it that the club have said its real name is now one thing, but the fans won't go along with it? Kind of fundamental - and needs addressing in line 1 of lead if the status quo of the article is correct
  • "changed code" from rugby league would be to another code of rugby, ie union, surely? Perhaps in Victorian times they were all considered "codes of football", but it's anachronistic today. Consider reword.
    • Reword. Added rugby football in there. Peanut4 (talk) 19:03, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • "although is now" - "although it is now"
  • one historic tenant mentioned in infobox, two others in lead not mentioned in infobox
    • I had them in at one point, then removed. Put back in again. Peanut4 (talk) 19:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • oldest surviving record claim in lead is more specific than in the history or the records section. Unsure also if three mentions is justifiable.
    • Fixed quote in history. And removed claim from records section. Peanut4 (talk) 19:03, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • "designers to excavate and level the land" - is "designers" the right word?
    • Correct. Reference actually sense under the guidance of the designers Peanut4 (talk) 19:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • same sentence "moving" is different tense than rest of what the designers did
  • some wikilinking needed in that parag
  • I'm confused - the team played Wekkkkfield Trinity but their first match was some months later?
    • I'm going by the source. I guess the Wakey game was some form of friendly / exhibition game. But I agree that some more research won't go amiss to try rind out. Peanut4 (talk) 19:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Explanation for ground's name needed in the earliest part of History
  • "change codes" again
    • Done. Just seen the same wording in source but agree it needs changing. Peanut4 (talk) 19:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I'd use "was" not "were" when referring to the club, but I know this is not universally agreed with
    • I prefer the British English for plurals for sports teams. I find it reads easier with one throughout, whether referring to Bradford City or simply club. Peanut4 (talk) 19:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • "City players changed in a side behind one end of the ground" - what's a "side"?
    • Good spot. Should be shed. Peanut4 (talk) 19:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • "After the end of City's 5–1 defeat" - slightly clumsy wording
    • Lol. I've read through this a million times and wondered about it. Changed to After City's 5-1 defeat. Peanut4 (talk) 19:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Why would switching changing facilities be appropriate punishment for the attack on a MUFC player? Is something missing? Was he attacked in the hotel?
    • Again. I'm going by the source. Will try find something else to find more info. Peanut4 (talk) 19:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Terracing/paddock/turnstile - wikilink
    • Added wikilink to first and third. Peanut4 (talk) 20:27, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • "build a Spion Kop" - needs explaining/rewording
    • Added wikilink Peanut4 (talk) 20:27, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • "during the club's FA Cup winning run" - include a wikilink (winning?) to that cup final
    • Changed link Peanut4 (talk) 19:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • "Changes to the ground were minimal thereafter until 1985." seems to be contradicted by the rest of a fairly bulky paragraph that follows it.
    • As above about the end of quote, I've often thought this myself. I mean minimal as in each individual change was minimal. I agree some change is needed. Peanut4 (talk) 19:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • were there gales again between 25 and 27, forcing a second roofing?
  • "Gateshead appealed against their 3–2 defeat but it was turned down by an FA enquiry." - Gateshead is the subject of the sentence, so I'd replace "it" (which would work for "the appeal") with "the request"
  • No idea why stand unusable for 6 years until the pitch was moved slightly... can you explain?
  • I'd guess many people don't know what tip-up seats are. Is there a wikilink?
  • I'm confused about the removal of 1,000 seats, as I'd guess that removing seats would encourage draughts, not discourage
    • Source actually says altered not removed, so I've changed. Peanut4 (talk) 20:33, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • "five years later work to fencing, exits and turnstiles ready for the visit of Manchester United in the third round of the Milk Cup" at least one word missing
    • Indeed. Actually added three. Peanut4 (talk) 19:25, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • "one of the sporting disasters" needs fixing
    • One of the worst sporting disasters. Fixed. Peanut4 (talk) 19:25, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • "265 injured" were injured
  • See belowI think it's essential that some of the key findings of the cause of the disaster are included in this article - it's an essential piece of narrative about the topic. In fact, it deserves its own subsection
  • "longer than the structure which had burned down" - relevance?
    • Just that obviously the stand was bigger and higher capacity. Again just going according to the sources. Peanut4 (talk) 20:33, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Do we have no main article on the Bradford fire? We blinking well ought to.
  • If the England XI wasn't the England XI, that wikilink is inappropriate
    • It was full of internationals. Do you reckon I should keep or remove the wikilink. Peanut4 (talk) 19:25, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
      • Remove. It wasn't the England team, so it's misleading to link there. I'd have suggested linking to scratch team but it's a redlink --Dweller (talk) 09:39, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
  • "largest safe-seating terrace" - dunno what that means, although I understand each of the words
    • Should be safe-standing Peanut4 (talk) 19:25, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Just wanted to say the panoramic shot is fantastic
    • Can't take any credit for that one. Peanut4 (talk) 19:25, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • "the ground itself is currently named the Coral Windows Stadium after they signed a three-year sponsorship deal in July 2007" is in the wrong section, irrelevant here
  • "9,004 supporters, closely followed by the Carlsberg Stand, which has a capacity of 7,492." closely followed is your POV. I don't think it's close at all.
  • "There are also more office space" is more
    • Fixed. Though not sure it should be is or are because it refers to a list. Peanut4 (talk) 19:33, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Now I'm confused - I've found the separate section on the fire - why not put it into the history section? Look what a tizz you put me into that I needed to strike stuff!
    • I've got short details in the history section. And a fuller version including background, causes and aftermath in the Bradford fire section. Peanut4 (talk) 19:33, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • "a small fire was noticed" then "were visible within minutes" With the latter, do you mean generally visible or something similar, ie not just to those in the vicinity?
    • More visible. Changed Peanut4 (talk) 20:36, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Fire section would be greatly enhanced by some appropriate quotations. Get witnesses to tell the story instead of your narrator's voice
    • Will try find some Peanut4 (talk) 20:36, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • "between gaps between" reword
    • Changed first to through Peanut4 (talk) 19:33, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • "although the ground had been used for reserve team fixtures since the previous September." I don't understand
    • It's wrong. It should be September 1986, so I'll reword it. Peanut4 (talk) 19:33, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Same problem with England XI
  • "another international" - as the first game wasn't, strictly speaking "an international" (just a match between sides of different nationalities) you can't say "another". This was really the first.
  • Bradford Park Avenue shouldn't be in a section about "international" stuff, but with the other tenants in the next para
    • Done so. Had split between football and rugby before. Now split between international and domestic. Peanut4 (talk) 20:36, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Odsal's "proposed redevelopment" - odd to talk about something that long ago in a kind of future tense. Did it not take place? If so "then proposed redevelopment" maybe?
    • Got rid of proposed. Peanut4 (talk) 20:36, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • "The record attendance at Valley Parade was" is
  • "The record modern all-seated attendance record at Valley Parade was" is. And why "modern"?
    • Done. Removed superfluous modern. Peanut4 (talk) 19:03, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • In fact, is for all existing records, even if they took place in the past. Was means they've been superceded, in which case they need to be updated :-)
    • Indeed. Done. Peanut4 (talk) 19:03, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • The Bradford Northern stat needs to be clarified as the highest at VP, as I'm fairly sure Odsal has held more.
  • Transport - nice idea, this section. Parking facilities? Buses from park and ride (if there is such a thing?)
    • Park and ride? Nah, that would be far too good an idea. Not sure it's worth putting something in if it doesn't exist. Peanut4 (talk) 19:03, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • overall, copy is quite choppy and needs help to make it flow better. I suggest you find a copy-editor to help smooth it over once you've dealt with comments here

Looking good. --Dweller (talk) 13:46, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for all your help. Much appreciated. Peanut4 (talk) 20:36, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Comments from The Rambling Man (talk · contribs)
  • "tragic fire" - POV. I know it was tragic, but stick to facts, call it a fatal fire or similar.
  • Don't force image thumb sizes - check out WP:MOS#Images, just leave it as plain thumb.
    • Never knew that. Though I am confused. How come others don't just use thumb? Peanut4 (talk) 20:02, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Make citations order numerically, there's a [12][11] at the moment. And a [45][43]
    • I've spotted this before. However in both those cases the first refers to the entire sentence and the second to just the latter half of the sentence. Peanut4 (talk) 20:02, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Otherwise I think Dweller picked most things up. Correct these and I suggest you head to FAC. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:32, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Comments by User:Noble Story I'll chip in with my copyedit:

Lead

  • "The stadium was the scene of a fatal fire on 11 May 1985 when 56 supporters were killed." I think there should be a comma after the date.

History

  • "The original ground composed of a 2,000-capacity stepped enclosure with the players' changing rooms below, the playing area, a cinder athletics track and fencing to limit the total capacity to 18,000. " I think that you should "was composed". Also, I think you mean to say "20,000-capacity".
  • "Football architect Archibald Leitch was commissioned to design new terracing in the paddock—a standing area in front of the 5,300-seater main stand, which was built in 1908—build a Spion Kop and an 8,000-capacity stand at the Midland Road end." I think you should add a conjunction before "build".
  • "The dressing rooms were also moved with a tunnel leading from the rooms underneath the Kop to the opposite corner of the ground." Comma needed after "moved".
  • "The total project had cost £9,958, and raised the capacity to 40,000..." Keep the verb tense consistent.
  • "Six years later, gales during December, prompted the club to replace the roof of the Midland Road stand, as they did again in October 1927, when the work was funded by the supporters' association." Remove the comma after "December". And who were the supporters supporting (the club, I presume, but clarify it).
  • "The ground was 45 years old, when Bradford City bought the ground outright." I think you can eliminate the comma.
  • "The capacity of the ground was reduced in 1952, whenhalf of the Midland Road stand was closed following examinations of the foundations ordered as a result of the Burnden Park disaster in 1946." Obviously, seperate "when" and "half".
  • "As a result of the examinations, the stand's steel frame was sold to Berwick Rangers for £450 and a smaller replacement stand built at Valley Parade in 1954." Say "was built".
  • "Instead only a wall was replaced, because of more gales in March that year, and five years later work to fencing, exits and turnstiles was carried out, ready for the visit of Manchester United in the third round of the Milk Cup." Put a comma after "instead".
  • "The two stands which had been largely unaltered during the ground's redevelopment because of the fire were both improved during the 1990s." Put a comma after "stands" and after "fire".
  • "A 2,300 seater stand was built filling in the corner between the main stand and Kop, taking the capacity to more than 20,000 for the first time since 1970, when it was opened in December 2000." Put a comma after "built" and put "and" before "taking.
  • "A second tier was added to the main stand costing £6.5m, and opened in 2001, which increased the main stand's capacity to 11,000, and the ground's capacity to 25,000." Put a comma after the first "main stand".
  • "The following year Valley Parade was sold to Gibb's pension fund for £5m with the club's offices, shop and car park sold to London-based Development Securities for an additional £2.5m." Put a comma after "year" and after "£5m".

Structure and facilities

  • "The ground has also been renamed a number of times for sponsorship reasons, with sponsors including the Pulse, Bradford & Bingley and Intersonic, and has been named the Coral Windows Stadium since July 2007 in a three-year deal, but is still commonly known throughout football as Valley Parade." I think you should split this sentence up, or at least put in a subject for the second clause.
  • "However in March 2008, the club announced that the TL Dallas Stand would be made available for home fans for the 2008–09 season." Put a comma after the first word.

Fire disaster

  • "After 40 minutes of the game, the score of which was still 0–0, a small fire was noticed three rows from the back of the ground's main stand." Maybe you should just say "After 40 minutes of scoreless play, a small fire..."
  • "Ultimately, the fire killed 56 spectators ranging from small children to the 86-year-old former chairman of the club, Sam Firth." Put a comma after "spectators."
  • "Instead it took until July 1986 for work to begin on rebuilding the ground." Put a comma after "Instead".

Other uses

  • "Valley Parade hosted its first international football game just two months after its first Football League match, when an English League side played an Irish League side on 10 October 1903, despite the ground not being up to standard, in a bid to promote the sport in West Yorkshire." "In a bid to promote the sport in West Yorkshire" comes a long way after the phrase it's related to, so maybe you should move it closer to the first phrase, if you know what I mean.
  • "But it was not until 6 April 1987 that the ground hosted another international when England under 18s drew 1–1 with Switzerland." Put a comma after "international".
  • "On 26 March 2002, Valley Parade also hosted an England under 21 game against Italy which ended in a 1–1 draw in front of 21,000 spectators." Put a comma after "Italy".

Records

  • "The highest crowd for a Bradford Northern fixture at Valley Parade was 20,973 on 13 February 1926 for a Challenge Cup game against Keighley which finished 2–2." Put a comma after "Keighley".

Transport I don't know, this section seems to be rather brief. Maybe it's meant to be, and can't really be expanded, but I don't know if it'll get by in FAC. Noble Story (talk) 14:10, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Thanks for your comments. I think I've addressed them all. Also, 2,000 is correct, not 20,000. The 2,000 refers to just that one stepped enclosure. Peanut4 (talk) 18:41, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

NB I'm not sure you've yet explained the name "Valley Parade"! This should be pretty prominent. (Apologies if I've missed it) --Dweller (talk) 06:54, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

No you haven't missed it. Unfortunately nowhere says where the name comes from. It's obviously something to do with it being on the hillside, and I know when the ground was first bought, it's explanation was "near Valley Parade ice rink" but that's about the best I can do at the moment. The ground is now on the road Valley Parade, but I'm not sure that was there when it was built in 1886, although there was a road South Parade. And I've exhausted almost every worthy source on the club or the city. Alas, I shall keep looking. Peanut4 (talk) 08:44, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I think it's fine to say all of that, preceded by "not clearly known" type statement! Far better than omitting. --Dweller (talk) 11:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
comments from Struway2 (talk · contribs)

Usual picky stuff.

  • Infobox. If you're citing one tenant, should probably cite them all. Field dimensions should have metric equivalent as well.
    • Done. Well, will get round to doing field dimensions too when I can work out how to convert it properly. Peanut4 (talk) 23:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Lead. redevelopment shouldn't be hyphenated. Wikilink FA Cup.
  • History para 1. If Manningham first team played their first game at VP in Dec 1886, who played in the official opening game?
    • I've simply gone by the sources available. See above response to User:Dweller. Peanut4 (talk) 23:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
  • para 2. Robert Bonthron has a stub article at Bob Bonthron.
  • para 3. reconstruction shouldn't be hyphenated.
  • para 4. is very long, could it be sensibly split?
    • Will try work out somewhere. I thought it was long, but the whole paragraph goes together. I'm tempted to try crop it, rather than split it. Peanut4 (talk) 23:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
  • "which once more reduced the capacity further" one or the other.
  • Pitch moved nearer main stand, should have 3 yd as primary measurement and the metric figure as bracketed conversion.
    • I'd gone by the source of 2.74m. But I agree it should be consistent. Done Peanut4 (talk) 23:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Should Milk Cup just be League Cup? thought we didn't use sponsored names (?)
    • Not sure. Is there any policy / guidance anywhere. Peanut4 (talk) 23:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
  • para 5. semicolons between ground names should be commas, though I see why you've done it. To avoid the confusing string of commas you could perhaps phrase it "Elland Road in Leeds, Huddersfield's Leeds Road ground, and Odsal Stadium, Bradford", or some similar combination of styles.
    • I'll check the MOS. I don't like mixing styles so close together, and preferred to make it obvious with a mix of semi-colons and commas - it is an accepted list method. It's there somewhere in Eats, Shoots & Leaves. Peanut4 (talk) 23:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
  • wikilink Boxing Day.
    • Done it above. And Christmas Day. Peanut4 (talk) 23:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
  • para 6. could Yorkshire derby (or derby, at least) be linked?
  • 7,500-capacity stand (and similar) should be hyphenated.
    • Done some. Will check for more. Peanut4 (talk) 23:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
  • para 7. link administration.
    • Good spot again. I thought I had done, but it turns out it was another article!! Peanut4 (talk) 23:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
  • para 8. should be The Pulse radio station, with "The" capitalised and within the wikilink.
    • Another good spot. Peanut4 (talk) 23:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
  • structure and facilities. How should bantamspast museum be capitalised? This article has "BantamsPast", whereas this one has "Bantamspast"...
    • To answer my own question, just come across the museum website which uses no capitals at all, and presumably they ought to know how to spell their own name. Should someone tell BCAFC?
      • Left as is. As you quite rightly found. The club partly runs the museum (I think), so ought to know themselves!! Peanut4 (talk) 23:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Fire disaster. para 3. "The ground had been first used for football with reserve team fixtures from September 1985" doesn't sound right.
    • It is right. Peanut4 (talk) 23:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
  • As above, semicolons between ground names should be commas. Does this need to be detailed in both this and the history section?
  • Other uses. Link Irish League. Is this match covered by note currently #53, or does it need citing? Link FA Amateur Cup. under-15s etc should be hyphenated.
    • All cited together. Added wls. Peanut4 (talk) 23:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Transport. You could add how far Forster Square station is from the ground. Though this section is already significantly longer than the corresponding section in the featured Portman Road, which is only three lines long ;-)
    • I couldn't find a source to find the distance. But will try again. Peanut4 (talk) 23:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

hope some of this helps, cheers, Struway2 (talk) 13:54, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

    • Thanks for the review. Picky stuff is great. It's usually stuff I'd miss anyway. Peanut4 (talk) 23:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC)