Jump to content

Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 October 21

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Language desk
< October 20 << Sep | October | Nov >> October 22 >
Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.


October 21

[edit]

Definitions of rheme and rhematic

[edit]

Could someone knowledgeable about linguistics please review the Wiktionary definitions of rheme and rhematic? In particular, the definition of rhematic as a noun ("The doctrine of propositions or sentences") is rather unclear. Thanks. — SMUconlaw (talk) 17:30, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The OED has "Coleridge's notional term for: the study or application of clarity and perspicuity of expression in sentences. Obs. rare." for the noun. Is the word ever used outside the study of Coleridge? Dbfirs 19:34, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I've revised the noun definition of rhematic. The word has other more modern senses – see the quotations. Unfortunately they are all very technical, hence the request for help. — SMUconlaw (talk) 19:54, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There are no other citations for wikt:rhematic as a noun, and the OED still considers it obsolete in their Third Edition as of 2010. I'm not a linguist, so I suppose it's possible that linguists have started using the word in the last five years with a different meaning? I assume that you are asking about the word used as an adjective: the OED defines the linguistic sense as "Of a part of a sentence: that provides new information about the theme or topic of an utterance or discourse, carrying the most pragmatically significant semantic content; that constitutes a rheme (rheme n. 2). Freq. opposed to thematic." There is also a sense for the adjective used in logic: "In the work of American philosopher C. S. Peirce (1839-1914): having the nature of a rheme; expressing a particular concept or idea.", and another obsolete and rare sense "derived from a verb". I don't know whether this helps. I'm certainly confused by all the different senses. It sounds like a Humpty Dumpty word to me. Dbfirs 20:11, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, thanks, this is helpful as it confirms that the Wiktionary definitions are more or less correct. Anyway, if someone who knows linguistics could also have a look and tweak the definitions if necessary, that would be much appreciated. — SMUconlaw (talk) 07:46, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Arabic translation

[edit]

Posted here for 184.147.131.85, as this page is currently protected. ---Sluzzelin talk 19:31, 21 October 2015 (UTC) [reply]

(a) What is the difference, in Wikipedia markup, between lang=aeb and lang=ar?

(b) What is the difference between these two strings of Arabic? What does each one say? الرباعي الراعي للحوار الوطني and الرباعي التونسي للحوار الوطني

(c) The first one had a romanization: er-rubāɛi er-raɛi lil-ḥiwār el-waṭanī. If the second one is more accurate, what would be its romanization? Many thanks, 184.147.131.85 (talk) 19:27, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

1) This code means "Tunisian Arabic" [1].

2) Let's parse it word by word:

  • the first word is الرباعي, al-rubāʿī "something foursome" (compare ruba'i)
  • the third is للحوار, li-l-ḥiwār "for the debate, dialogue"
  • the fourth is الوطني, al-waṭanī "of the country, nation"
  • the second words are different: in the first phrase it is الراعي, ar-rāʿī "herder, shepherd", in the second - التونسي, at-tūnisī "of Tunisia, Tunisian".

Generally it means what it's supposed to mean - "Tunisian National Dialogue Quartet". But the first phrase may be interpreted as "the quartet of the heads, chiefs, rulers".

3) The scientific transcription for Standard Arabic is al-rubāʿī ar-rāʿī/at-tūnisī li-l-ḥiwār al-waṭanī. I have little idea how Tunisians would prounounced it. Probably the article al- indeed is el-. The symbol ɛ for ayin is utterly wrong because it is used for a vowel.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 23:38, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not: / al-rubāʿī /, but rather: / ar-rubāʿī /.
The Tunisians pronounce it: / ərr'bɑʕɪ ər'rɑʕɪ (ət'tunsɪ) ləlħ'wɑr əl'wəṭnɪ /. HOOTmag (talk) 10:27, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I knew about the sun letter but forgot.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 12:17, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]