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June 10[edit]

Book translation for Roger Masson[edit]

Hi, could somebody please idiomatic translate this book title from German to English. .

"Nationalsozialistische Großraumordnung : Die Konstruktion einer "deutschen Monroe-Doktrin"

Its for the Roger Masson article ref. I not sure what "Großraumordnung" means. Thanks scope_creep^Talk 09:08, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article has "the order of the Great Area". Make of that what you will. Alansplodge (talk) 11:36, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Alansplodge: Thanks for that. I'll read up on it. scope_creep^Talk 11:42, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Some elucidation;

Schmitt’s idea of Großraum — a greater territorial space or a pan-region — as the elementary building block for an anti-cosmopolitan, anti-universal organization of the international order based on a plurality of co-existing Großräume, each one under the leadership of an imperial nation.

DECISIONS AND INDECISIONS: Political and Intellectual Receptions of Carl Schmitt

Alansplodge (talk) 11:44, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Based on the Monroe Doctrine, "Großraumordnung" could be translated sphere of influence. TSventon (talk) 12:03, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Beyond the Conceivable Studies on Germany, Nazism, and the Holocaust (Dan Diner, 2000, p45) mentions "regional hegemony in the form of a greater territorial order [Großraumordnung]". TSventon (talk) 12:14, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

One of the synonyms for the German word Ordnung is the German word (or possibly loanword) Organisation, so you can see how the meaning developed. 2A00:23C3:FB81:A501:24FC:4B46:8DAC:E612 (talk) 12:19, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think Ordnung here has the same sense as English order in the translation "New Order" of the Nazi concept known as Neuordnung in German, or as in "New World Order". --Lambiam 14:40, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So it could something like "Nazi New World Order:The creation of the German Monroe Doctrine" or possibly "Nazi Planned Regional Hegemony:The creation of the German Monroe Doctrine"? scope_creep^Talk 15:29, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Schmitt 2011 has

"notably his 1939 Völkerrechtliche Großraumordnung mit Interventionsverbot für Raumfremde Mächte [The Order of Greater Spaces in International Law and the Prohibition of Intervention for Space-Alien Powers]. "The order of Greater Spaces". I'm not even what that means. Probably an article would be ideal here. scope_creep^Talk 15:38, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Großraum just means "large area". In the context of these publications, we should think of really large areas, like even continents. German happily stacks words together to form compounds, which are sometimes not so easily translated (Großdruckbuchstabe, Großhändleraufschlag, Großvieheinheit). A reasonable translation of Großraumordnung is (IMO) "order of greater areas" or "order based on greater areas". (For the choice of "greater", compare Großdeutschland = Greater Germany.) If this translation is not immediately abundantly clear, it is something it has in common with the German word, which needs to be clarified by a context. --Lambiam 18:00, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think the underlying idea is that a few great powers carve up the world and then basically leave each other alone, no interference, no collaboration, no "intermingling". I believe it goes beyond spheres of influence, it would probably be more like spheres of control, either in the form of giant empire states or great empire states with smaller vassal states with limited autonomy.

Is it at all an option to leave "Großraumordnung" untranslated? E.g. "National socialist Großraumordnung: The construction of a "German Monroe Doctrine".

You'll notice that I used "national socialist" instead of "Nazi" and "construction" instead of "development".

The word "Konstruktion" can , like "construction", refer both to the act or process or to the result of the process. I'm not familiar with the book so I can't say which meaning is more likely to be the intended one. If the subject of the book is how the doctrine was developed historically translating it as "development" is preferable. But if it focuses more on the content of the doctrine, i.e. on the "Großraumordnung" then it may refer to this order as a "Konstruktion".

The reason for using "national socialist" is mainly that it seems more fitting for academic discourse. At least in German historiography (I am less familiar with English language historiography in this field) the term "nationalsozialistisch" is usually preferred. Although there are exceptions, e.g. there is a paper by Dan Diner which is notorious for the fact that he switches from "nationalsozialistisch" to "nazi" half-way through. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 18:41, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is an article on pan-region, which seems to be Karl Haushofer's version of Großraum, but it only cites one source. TSventon (talk) 06:35, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Another translation is "large-scale order" in The Administrative State (Armin von Bogdandy et al, 2017, p. 52). I am not sure that Großraumordnung needs an article, but a section like de:Carl Schmitt#Großraumordnung could be useful. TSventon (talk) 07:48, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There seem to be a number of publications that translate "Großraum" as "great space" in the context of Schmitt: [1][2] and a handful that translate "Großraumordnung" as "order of great spaces"[3]. Given that that is a very literal translation that may indeed be the best option. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 11:25, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note that the English Wiktionary gives these senses for Großraum:

wider area; (of a city) metropolitan area
Großraum London — Greater London
large room

The German Wiktionary gives the corresponding senses:

[1] zusammenhängendes, als Einheit verstandenes, größeres Gebiet

[2] großer Innenraum

Here the first sense applies, in translation, "coherent, larger area conceived of as a unit". Translating Raum as "area" in the context is fully justified and IMO preferable. --Lambiam 19:54, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I found examples where Schmitt's "Großraum" is translated as "great area". So both seem to be in use and you can chose whichever you prefer. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 16:52, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is it possible to make an attempt at a translation? scope_creep^Talk 12:16, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"National socialist order of great areas: The development of a 'German Monroe Doctrine'"

Alternatives:

"nazi" instead of "national socialist"

"spaces" instead of "areas"

"construction" instead of "development"

Any combination of those should work. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 18:14, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think "National Socialist" is preferable to "Nazi", which initially was a pejorative for persons of the National Socialist persuasion. The sense of Raum here is a geographic territory, for which the polysemous term "space" is rarely used. I do prefer "construction" over "development", though. If the author had intended to describe a process of development, he would have used Entwicklung. Given the topic, it is more likely about how the concept was fashioned, like the term "construction" is used in "the construction of a national identity"[4] – creating something that did not exist before. The book is about the concept of a World order in terms of divvying up the World into a relatively small number of Großräume, constructed as a justification for the occupation of a large area by the Third Reich. One possibility is "order of great(er) areas"; another is "greater-area order". The latter feels better to me. All combined, throwing in a definite article to make it more idiomatic, The National Socialist greater-area order: The construction of a "German Monroe Doctrine". --Lambiam 00:04, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"National Socialist" instead of "Nazi" seems like an attempt to hide who you are talking about. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:55, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Scope creep: Strongly disagree with "great area"; the sense of the word by itself or combined with city or small region names is closer to "Greater" as previously mentioned, in "Greater New York" and so on. However, that's not what it means here, because they are talking about at least Europe here, so in the two-word phrase in the OP, it means the "Nazi New World Order" (with or without 'World', but I like it with). That this is so can be seen in numerous articles that talk about Schmitt's Volkerrechtliche Großraumordnung (3rd. ed., 1941; also in English) which is the "New International Order". See for example, Peter Stirk's article "Carl Schmitt's 'Völkerrechtliche Grossraumordnung' "^[1] where he uses "Nazi New Order" (p. 358), and just plain "New Order" for short (sometimes lower case), after the original term has been introduced; or Gary Ulmen's "Toward a New World Order: Introduction to Schmitt" (1996).^[2] So, I'd go with "Nazi New [World] Order" the first time, and then maybe shorten it by dropping the "Nazi" on subsequent uses. Mathglot (talk) 01:29, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'll take a look at the jstor doc today. It really comes to either "The National Socialist greater-area order: The construction of a "German Monroe Doctrine" or "Nazi New Order" or possibly "National Socialist New Order..." The concept seems to be the same kind of encapsulation, the control of an area within a greater area. I've sent a service request to De Gruyter for a comment to determine if they can provide a translation, since they now own the publisher. scope_creep^Talk

I would not use "new order" here for the simple reason that without context it is unspecific". "new world order" or "new international order" are better, but still lack the specificity of "Großraumordnung". "Großraumordnung" says something about how the world order should look like. "New world order" could, at least in theory, refer to the idea that we need lots of small independent states cooperating with each other, the exact opposite of what is intended. I think we should prefer a more literal translation over one that is more pleasing stylistically. On whether to use "great" or "greater" and whether to use "area" or "space" I defer to the Sprachgefühl of native speakers of English. They all seem to be in use in academic literature on the subject. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 18:45, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would also oppose New Order and New World Order as the source is about Großraum, including Schmitt's ideas, rather than Neuordnung.

Roger Masson#German press campaign against Switzerland has two translated mentions of Großraum and one of Großraumordnung so it would probably be worth including the German phrase Großraum and translating it consistently. TSventon (talk) 12:37, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is no translation at the link you posted that comes from a reliable source, and it shouldn't be part of this discussion. Mathglot (talk) 20:02, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Alansplodge: @Lambiam: @Random person no 362478479: @Mathglot: @Khajidha: @TSventon: I've got a message back from Claudia Heyer, acquisitions editor at De Gruyer, who spoke to the translators and the history department. She stated it is an established term and they felt it shouldn't be translated. That makes it difficult for us though, as such a complex cultural concept can't seem to be translated into English easily. I plan to leave it untranslated for the moment, unless somebody want to stab at it. scope_creep^Talk 14:08, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A {{note}} can be used to explain the term without disrupting the flow in the main text. --Lambiam 15:38, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That was a great overture on your part; thanks for that, and it's gratifying that you got a response. That said, their opinion is just that, one more opinion; in particular, their view is not necessarily influenced by Wikipedia policy or guidelines, like ours is (or should be). We can certainly consider what they have to say, to the extent that it's aligned with policy, but I don't think their opinion carries more weight than the opinion of any editor here. That said, I think your plan to leave it untranslated is certainly defensible (with or without Heyer's input), but in that case I would add an explanatory note going into some detail about the meaning of the term. Thanks again for going the extra mile to look into this! Mathglot (talk) 17:39, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's not really a cultural concept. It is very much a term of art. In everyday German "Großraum" means "metropolitan area" (I just saw that in the Roger Masson article it was translated like that at one point, which is a bit of a howler) and is almost always followed by the name of a major city: "Großraum London", "Großraum München", etc. The use of "Großraum" in question here is confined entirely to academia. So leaving it untranslated does make sense and is what I would absolutely prefer in academic writing. Of course here we have a different audience to take into account. We could use a note as Lambian suggested. Or, given that the book is only quoted in a short passage, we could leave the explanation of the term to the main text and rely on the fact that people interested in the title of the book will usually go there from the text. I have just made some changes to the explanation of "Großraum" in the body of the article and I removed the translations. I welcome any input on the changes and of course, as always, if you have ideas for improvement go ahead and be WP:BOLD. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 17:51, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Schmitt refs[edit]

^ Stirk, Peter. "Carl Schmitt’s 'Völkerrechtliche Grossraumordnung.' " History of Political Thought, vol. 20, no. 2, 1999, pp. 357–74. JSTOR, http://www.jstor.org/stable/26217583. Accessed 16 June 2023.
^ Ulmen, Gary (1996). "Toward a New World Order: Introduction to Schmitt". Telos: Critical Theory of the Contemporary 109.

[1] Stirk, Peter. "Carl Schmitt’s 'Völkerrechtliche Grossraumordnung.' " History of Political Thought, vol. 20, no. 2, 1999, pp. 357–74. JSTOR, http://www.jstor.org/stable/26217583. Accessed 16 June 2023.

[2] Ulmen, Gary (1996). "Toward a New World Order: Introduction to Schmitt". Telos: Critical Theory of the Contemporary 109.

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