Language desk
< May 4	<< Apr \| May \| Jun >>	May 6 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is a transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

May 5

Latin

In an attempt to improve Thomas Rymer, I came across this: (see Talk:Thomas Rymer#DoB and 1st para, 'Early life and education'):

"Thomas Rymer^[1] filius Radulphi Rymer^[2] de Brafferton in comitatu Eboracensi generosi Lit : Gram : per octo annos a Thoma Smelt apud oppidum Northallerton dictum institutus, annos agens septemdecem, admissus est pensionarius minor, tutore et fidejussore Johanne Luke^[3] in artibus magistro 29 Ap. 1658."^[4]

Although my O-level Latin allows me to grasp most of the above, there are a number of words/phrases whose meaning escape me, namely: generosi; dictum; and agens. Fidejussore = "guarantor, one who gives surety or goes bail. (uncommon)."^[5] {{acad}} says Luke gained his M.A. in 1656.

My version:

Thomas Rymer, the son of Ralph Rymer of Brafferton in the county of York generosi was prepared ('institutus...est') in Literature and Grammar for eight years by Thomas Smelt at/in the town of Northallerton dictum, [and] at the age of seventeen was admitted as 'pensionarius minor' by [his] tutor and guarantor John Luke as M.A. 29 April 1658.

Anyone feel capable of filling in the gaps? MinorProphet (talk) 01:20, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps apud oppidum...dictum means 'in the said town of Northallerton', although it may not have been mentioned previously. MinorProphet (talk) 01:44, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd translate it as "at/near the town called ...". --Lambiam 11:30, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Most likely. I suspect it's a roundabout way of referring to places with no direct Latin equivalent, eg Eboracum, Glevum (Gloucester), and probably means no more than 'the town of Northallerton'. MinorProphet (talk)

I have no skill in Latin, but could the generosi element relate to Thomas Smelt, perhaps funding or in terms of giving his time ? Alansplodge (talk)

In the phrase a Thoma Smelt, 'by Thomas Smelt', the preposition a takes the ablative case, and generosi is genitive sing., so it must (hah!) relate to either Radulphi or Eboracensi. Whitaker's Words also gives "of good family/stock". MinorProphet (talk) 11:58, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Latin generosus can mean "excellent", "honourable", so (not quite idiomatic English) "in the county of honourable York"; more idiomatic "in the honourable County of York". And īnstituō can mean "to train, teach, instruct, educate (usually by a course of training)", so Tom "was instructed" in Lit & Gram. The verb agō, in combination with a specified age, means "to be so old" (see L&S). --Lambiam 13:24, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good old Lewis and Short: that ago is an enormous entry. I quite like agite, pugni "up, fists, and at 'em!" L&S is also available at Latinitium along with Smith & Hall Eng-Lat and others, intro here. MinorProphet (talk)

Does it not, perhaps, make more sense to take generosi as modifying "Radulphi Rymer": "son of the honorable Ralph Rymer of Brafferton in the county of York"? Deor (talk) 13:38, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ralph, the father, was very much a Parliamentarian, hanged for his part in the 1663 Farnley Wood Plot to oust Charles II. The Farnley Wood Plot and the Memory of the Civil Wars in Yorkshire (jstor) says he was the most well-to-do of all the 'conspirators', worth £400 a year. L&S on Latinitium includes 'eminent' for generosus, and I feel that despite the distance between Radulphi...generosi it seems more likely to refer to him than Eboracensi. MinorProphet (talk)

Many thanks to all for your kind and thoughtful contributions. I found the admission entries for other Cambridge undergrads including Milton and Darwin use a very similar formula/template. Pensioners or Commoners paid for their fees and board, unlike scholars or sizars, who were subsidised. Thus:

Thomas Rymer, the son of Ralph Rymer. Gent., of Brafferton in the county of York, instructed in Letters and Grammar for eight years by Thomas Smelt in the town called Northallerton, at the age of seventeen years was admitted as pensionarius minor by [his] tutor and guarantor John Luke as M.A. 29 April 1658.

MinorProphet (talk) 23:37, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Although I felt that apud oppidum Northallerton dictum just meant 'in the town of Northallerton' rather than Lambiam's 'town called Northallerton', I just noticed that Ralph was de Brafferton with no ending, but with de taking the ablative: so why the extra dictum (neut. sing.) if apud oppidum Northallerton would work in the same way, with apud taking the acc. of location? I may be overthinking things (a fatal habit of mine.) I realise it doesn't materially affect the general sense of the whole passage. MinorProphet (talk) 11:58, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why do people write such things as "a town called Meziers", "a large town called Bruges", "a small town called Thielt", "a town called Melun", "a town called St. Quentin", "a town called Noyon", "a town called Crepy", "a town called Meaux", "a town called Pethovers", "a town called Tusson", ...^[1]? This may indicate that they do not presume their readers' being familiar with these names. Is it possible that the Northallerton of 1658 was not a well-known place? --Lambiam 07:54, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it's an awful long way from Cambridge (in 17th-century terms, probably more than a week's journey by road). Although it was the county town for the North Riding of Yorkshire, writing a century earlier, John Leland says that "The towne of Northalverton, is yn one fair long streate lying by south and north", [2] so not a terribly big place. Alansplodge (talk) 15:39, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Point taken, leaving out dictum leaves a gap in the translation; I amended my rendering. MinorProphet (talk) 07:06, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Generosus was used to translate gentleman, e.g. here. TSventon (talk) 14:27, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Even more succinct, I'll take a dozen, please. Further amended:

"Thomas Rymer, the son of Ralph Rymer. Gent., of Brafferton in the county of York, instructed in Letters and Grammar for eight years by Thomas Smelt in the town called Northallerton, at the age of seventeen years was admitted as pensionarius minor by [his] tutor and guarantor John Luke as M.A. 29 April 1658." MinorProphet (talk) 20:42, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

With my limited Latin, I would say "John Luke, M.A." rather than "John Luke as M.A." Tutore, fidejussore, Johanne and magistro all seem to be in the ablative case. TSventon (talk) 22:02, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ "Rymer, Thomas (RMR659T)". A Cambridge Alumni Database. University of Cambridge.
^ "Rimer, Ralph (RMR618R)". A Cambridge Alumni Database. University of Cambridge.
^ "Luke, John (LK649)". A Cambridge Alumni Database. University of Cambridge.
^ Hardy, Thomas Duffus, ed. (1869). Syllabus (in English) of the documents relating to England and other kingdoms contained in the collection known as "Rymer's Foedera": Vol. 1 1066–1377. London: Longmans, Green & Co. p. xviii n2).
^ Whitaker's Words online

[1] "Rymer, Thomas (RMR659T)". A Cambridge Alumni Database. University of Cambridge.

[2] "Rimer, Ralph (RMR618R)". A Cambridge Alumni Database. University of Cambridge.

[3] "Luke, John (LK649)". A Cambridge Alumni Database. University of Cambridge.

[4] Hardy, Thomas Duffus, ed. (1869). Syllabus (in English) of the documents relating to England and other kingdoms contained in the collection known as "Rymer's Foedera": Vol. 1 1066–1377. London: Longmans, Green & Co. p. xviii n2).

[5] Whitaker's Words online

[1]

[2]

[3]

[4]

[5]