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February 28[edit]

AGS has no ammo?[edit]

I have been editing Zumwalt-class destroyer and related articles. The gun used on these ships is the Advanced Gun System (AGS). According to the refrences I can find, AGS can only use ammunition designed specifically for it, and the only such ammunition is the Long Range Land Attack Projectile (LRLAP). The LRLAP procurement was cancelled and there are no plans to replace it. By implication, the guns on these ships and their entire supporting infrastructure of turrets, magazines, cooling systems, etc. are totally useless and the Zumwalts cannot fire any rounds, so they are reduced to being just missile ships.

Is this correct or am I missing something? If it is correct, these articles are in need of more extensive editing, as their current tone makes it sound like this weapons system is useful and important even after my modest edits. -Arch dude (talk) 19:12, 28 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

From my reading of the Advanced Gun System article, the entire system is "dead in the water", that is there is no plans to continue the funding or research into it; it's basically done. That's because (again from my reading) its development was closely tied to the development of the Zumwalt-class destroyer; since only three of those will ever be built, have a new novel gun system built and developed for 3 small ships was untennable from a financial standpoint. The Zumwalt-class does have other guns, however. The article you cite, under the section titled "Secondary guns" discusses additional guns installed on the ship. --Jayron 32 19:43, 28 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Its no problem to exchange, replace, update or add parts of big military vessels. In fact this is done all the time. Further your implication of uselessness is wrong because instead of sharp ammunition training "ammunition" can and will be used to train every unit involved. Its unclear why such advanced vessels still need "artillery" btw. Probably only still ideal for warning shots. --Kharon (talk) 23:35, 28 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

With respect: it is a problem. There is no training ammo for these guns. The only ammo is however much is left of the 150 total rounds of LRLAP produced for initial testing, and there is no indication that any of these rounds are aboard the three ships. If they are, then the six AGSs have less than rounds apiece, and there will be no more. If the LRLAP program is re-activated, new rounds will cost at least $800,000 per individual round. Simply modifying the six guns for any other type of ammunition will cost $250 million dollars. Apparently, the Navy agrees with you: there is no longer a need for "large" (188 mm) naval artillery, so the rounds will not be procured and the guns will never be fired. Smaller artillery is used on all other Navy ships and can indeed be used for warning shots, but the Zumwalts have only 2 much smaller (30 mm) Bushmasters. When the Zumwalt class ended with only 3 ships, the Navy started building new ships of the older Arleigh Burke-class.-Arch dude (talk) 04:17, 1 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Goodness. That make's the Royal navy's plan to launch a new aircraft carrier several years before they would have any aircraft that could fly from it seem reasonable. Iapetus (talk) 10:04, 1 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not as bad as folks make out, a few weeks after commissioning she's already flying helicopters on a trials basis and is working towards "the first embarkation of fixed wing aircraft in the Autumn"; see First fixed wing pilots join HMS Queen Elizabeth (23 Feb 2018). Alansplodge (talk) 12:40, 1 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The parallels are interesting. In both cases, major design tradeoffs were made to support a system that was ultimately abandoned, leaving the ship to fulfil only secondary roles that are better served by much less complex and costly designs. The The new british carrier abandoned an EMALS type system, and the Zumwalts abandoned the AGS. -Arch dude (talk) 19:51, 1 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, AGS is not quite "dead in the water"; Raytheon Excalibur Round Set to Replace LRLAP on Zumwalts (Jan 2017), which still seems to be ongoing according to US Navy’s Most Advanced Destroyers to Get New Primary Anti-Ship Mission: The Zumwalt-class will be refocused from land attack to surface strike (Dec 2017). Our article M982 Excalibur describes the munition, but doesn't mention the Zumwalt-class. Alansplodge (talk) 11:18, 1 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I would say the complete Zumwalt-class looks dead in the water, given the 4 billion $ pricetag on a single unite. The similar brand new "multirole", "guided missile with nuclear option", russian build Admiral Gorshkov-class frigates come at just 260 million $ per unit. The Zumwalt class is just 180m long and costs as much as the Nimitz-class aircraft carriers. TF!? --Kharon (talk) 19:43, 1 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That reference from Jan 2017 contains a speculation from one source and a refutation from the Navy. A later reference (Feb 2018) says "no plans" Neither is really a good reference, but the are the best we have so far. -Arch dude (talk) 19:51, 1 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Point taken, the pertinent part of the December article is "Defense officials have told USNI News that studies are underway on how to make the Advanced Gun System accommodate new ammunition, and that the modifications to the three ships’ batteries might cost $250 million". Alansplodge (talk) 11:24, 2 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And finally, No New Round Planned For Zumwalt Destroyer Gun System; Navy Monitoring Industry (January 11, 2018) from the US Naval Institute which I have added to the Advanced Gun System article. The official spokesman is one Capt. James Kirk, so it must be right! Alansplodge (talk) 16:18, 2 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]