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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Article promoted by Kges1901 (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 00:20, 22 August 2019 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

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Nominator(s): EnigmaMcmxc (talk)

59th (Staffordshire) Infantry Division (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

The 9th (Staffordshire) Infantry Division was a British Army division during the Second World War. The division, raised initially as a motor division before being converted into an infantry formation, remained in the UK until it was deployed to Normandy. In Normandy, it was involved in several brief sharp clashes with German forces (Operation Charnwood and Pomegranate) before the British manpower crisis came to a head. In August, as the junior division in Normandy, it was disbanded and its units transferred to other divisions to bring them up to full strength. The article has recently been overhauled and greatly expanded, was given a copyedit by the GOCE, and has just past its GA review. I believe it is ready for the next step.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 21:06, 3 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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  • All images are appropriately licenced.
  • Consider alt text for all images.

Gog the Mild (talk) 02:23, 4 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by PM

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This article is in good shape. There is quite a bit of dropping of the definite article in front of Arabic ordinals (which is common in military circles, but isn't grammatically correct), but I have a few other comments as well:

More to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:03, 4 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's all I have. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:04, 4 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the review and comments, I believe I have addressed all of your concerns :) EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 23:46, 6 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, supporting. Nice work. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:12, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Nick-D

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I've steered clear of wording issues given PM's very comprehensive review, and would like to offer the following comments:

  • I'd suggest explaining what "second-line" means in the context in which it's used here.
  • Likewise, what's meant for this to be a "duplicate" division?
    In regards to these two, I have made some changes to the article to hopefully make this a bit more clear for the reader. Do they work?
  • "piecemeal use" and "The TA would join regular army divisions in waves " seems contradictory
    I have made some changes to this, I hope it works better.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:52, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Did the 1/6th Battalion South Staffordshire Regiment suffer casualties during its deployment to France in 1940?
    It does appear that secondary sources offer little in the way of casualty information for the fight and flight in Flanders.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:52, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It was short of equipment..." what point in time are the stats for equipment? When was this rectified? - my understanding is that some key deficiencies were made good quite quickly.
    A lack of equipment seems to be a common theme among the 2nd line formations. I have added the date for when the stats are from. Doing some digging on the artillery and AT situation, I have read some production figures that suggest it would have taken a full month's worth of 25-pounder output to fully equip one division around May-June 1940. The existing, and somewhat offhand comment, that was worked into the overall of new equipment arriving in 1941 seems the best that can be dug up at the moment. I don't have access to Knight, but could request with the reference chaps for the pages before and after the cited one to see if Knight provides more information in this regard?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:52, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the division returned to the United Kingdom" - was Northern Ireland not part of the UK at this time?
    TweakedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 23:53, 6 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As the division had had little in the way of tank-infantry co-operation training or experience, the 34th Tank Brigade was attached in September." - was this only for training purposes? The British infantry divisions which fought in Western Europe in 1944-45 almost always had a tank or armoured brigade attached, so it may have been doctrine.
    The specific quote from Place is "It n doubt helped that for the remainder of 1943 the brigade was affiliated for training purpose to 59th Division, whose troops had negligible training in co-operation with tanks." He then goes into quite a bit of detail on the tactical changes in training for the tank brigade and advancing with infantry. From the doctrine and operational aspect, Buckley and Hart argue that the armour and tank brigades being attached for attacks was part of the Colossal Crack process of reducing casualties and concentrating firepower. Buckley also argues there was a breakdown between official doctrine and how Montgomery wanted to use his brigades, as well as a lack of production factoring in. All taken together, yes, I think this was merely for training purposes and not another attempt at reimaging the mixed division or getting the 59th ready for how Monty wanted to fight Normandy. With that all said and done, suggestions for rewording if you see fit?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:52, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In late June, Montgomery ordered XII Corps, part of British Second Army and of 21st Army Group, to be shipped to France due to the need for fresh infantry formation" - surely the corps and this division were programmed to be deployed to Europe at some stage? Did Monty have this brought forward?
    From what Stacey writes, Monty appeared to have total control over who was being to shipped to France and when: "[Monty's] senior administrative officer 'had informed him that while another Corps could be brought in, he could not maintain another body of Army Troops in the existing area'. Moreover, while Montgomery wanted more infantry, he did not need more armour at present. Therefore, the Guards Armoured Division and the 4th Canadian Armoured Division were to be "phased back" and come in at the end of the build-up. His immediate intention was to build up the 12th Corps by bringing in the 53rd and 59th Infantry Divisions..."
  • [18][74][89][90][91][83] - this number of sources for two fairly simple sentences seems excessive.
    I have addressed thisEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:52, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Despite their precarious position, German infantry conducted counter-attacks and attempted to retake lost villages." - needs a reference
    addressedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:52, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd suggest noting that Charles Perry Stacey was the Canadian official historian
    amendedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 23:53, 6 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The quote from Montgomery to Brooke in the quotebox doesn't really work - the quote appears next to the subsequent para. I'd suggest not using a quotebox here.
    RemovedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 23:53, 6 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The division was included on a list of the eight most reliable divisions that fought with 21st Army Group during the Normandy Campaign" - whose list was this?
    Further refined using the complete context of what Hart was discussing, rather than downplaying what was previously in the article when it was being revamped.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:52, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd suggest saying what a battlefield clearance unit was Nick-D (talk) 08:36, 4 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Joslen does not provide much more detail than "controlling and organizing the clearance of all equipment", which I have inserted into the article. I don't dare to elaborate further, and the other sources I have don't appear to discuss it (if I am not mistaken).EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:52, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I suspect that's the case @Hawkeye7: is there anything from your research on logistics in the Normandy campaign which explains this term? Nick-D (talk) 09:57, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I mentioned it briefly in the British logistics in the Normandy Campaign article, under "Salvage" down near the bottom of the article. The 197th Brigade was engaged in collecting the vast quantity of equipment that was abandoned in the Falaise area. It remained engaged in this work in the area until December. Components included No. 17 Field Salvage Unit. A great deal of equipment was collected and restored to use. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:31, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you for the heads-up about that article. I have added a note into this article largely based off what is in that one to give a little more info on the bigrade.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 18:51, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Just a quick pass of some of the issues you have raised, I will attempt to clear the rest in the coming days.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 23:53, 6 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support My comments are now addressed - great work, and sorry about the slow response. Nick-D (talk) 09:57, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from AustralianRupert

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Support: G'day, nice work - I have a few minor comments/suggestions: AustralianRupert (talk) 10:35, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

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CommentsSupport by CPA-5

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That's anything from me. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 16:10, 16 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.