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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Anotherclown (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 22:06, 7 November 2015 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Abu'l-Aswar Shavur ibn Fadl

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Nominator(s): Constantine ✍

Abu'l-Aswar Shavur ibn Fadl (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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Continuing in the series of lesser-known but fascinating medieval Muslim rulers, this is an article on the greatest representative of the Kurdish Shaddadid dynasty. In many ways an archetypical example of the perpetually feuding petty princes of Transcaucasia, he was an extremely able man and held in high esteem by friend and foe alike. His life spans a watershed period in the region's history, from the final stages of the Byzantine conquest of Armenia to the emergence of the Seljuks as the region's new masters, events in which he inevitably became embroiled and often played a major role. The article relies on two standard works by Minorsky and Ter-Ghewondyan, who between them draw on all available sources, Muslim or Christian. I feel the article is comprehensive and as complete as it can get, my chief worry, as usual, is whether people who don't know anything about the region and period will be able to follow it. Constantine ✍ 10:26, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Speaking of people who don't know anything about the region...the map. What are you hoping the reader will get out of it? I'm wondering whether you need to translate it, or provide further explanation in the caption. Nikkimaria (talk) 11:40, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Nikkimaria: Hmmm, perhaps I don't see the problem because I speak German, but IMO the map should be readable to any English-speaker as the names are almost identical. It is therefore sufficient to give an idea of the main principalities, the situation of the various major cities, etc. I will probably try to translate it though in the weekend. Do you have any other comments/suggestions other than the map? Constantine ✍ 11:02, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Nikkimaria have you done an image review on this one? Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 03:03, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Now done - the only other recommendation is to explicitly identify the copyright status of 3D works as well as that of the photograph. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:12, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments: G'day again, I have the following suggestions: AustralianRupert (talk) 03:51, 29 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • I suggest maybe trying to split the lead into two paragraphs (the content summary is fine, but it is maybe just a little two long for a single paragraph);
    • Hmmm, thematically it could be split at the point he moved to Ganja, but at ten sentences it is IMO not long enough to require it. If anything, I thought that the lede was a bit too telegraphic.
  • I'm not sure about the way in which the Origins section starts...I can't quite put my finger on it, but it seems a little indistinct in the way it describes the subject's birth date etc. Sorry, this comment isn't much help...I will try to have a think about this a bit more and come back later.
    • OK, I'll wait. I've made a few tweaks here and there, though...
      • G'day, thanks for those changes, I think they go quite a way to fixing the issue; I think it would be even better if you could work in some way of mentioning when the subject was born, or if the date isn't known, stating that. Equally, I think the construction "considered the family..." seems a little unclear to what family you are referring. You mean the Shaddadids, of course, but the current wording still just seems a little indistinct. Sorry, again, I'm not being much help. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 11:26, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • per MOS:ALLCAPS: the title of the Peacock source should be "Shaddadids";
  • be careful of overlink. The duplicate link checker tool reveals several possible examples: Arran (Caucasus); Ganja, Azerbaijan; Medieval Armenia;
  • "in about the same time" --> "at about the same time"?
  • " he contacted Abu'l-Aswar to attack the Armenians from the rear..." --> " he contacted Abu'l-Aswar and requested that he attack the Armenians from the rear..."?
  • "asked of Abu'l-Aswar to assume control of the city..." --> "asked Abu'l-Aswar to assume control of the city"?

Hi AustralianRupert, thanks for taking the time to review this! I've fixed most of the issues you raised. Apart from these, how does it look re understandability etc.? Cheers, Constantine ✍ 11:02, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

G'day, I'm sorry, this hasn't been my best review. I think I'm going to have to take a break from reviewing for a while. I've been going through something in real life and recently I haven't felt as motivated as I used to be...overall, I think the article is quite good. Thank you for your efforts. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 11:26, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No problem, thanks for your effort. I hope your RL troubles resolve themselves soon and to your satisfaction! Cheers, Constantine ✍ 13:50, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 06:14, 13 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • toolchecks ok, including alt text for all images. However, the link for Ter-Ghewondyan resolves with a 403 error (Forbidden)

Lead

  • It isn't immediately obvious in the first two sentences of the lead in which part of the modern world Abu'l-Aswar ruled, and some context is needed. Rough context, anyway. Modern day Azerbaijan? Something like "including most of the territory of modern-day XXXX".
  • The first sentence is a bit hard to fathom. He ruled at Arran, with his capital in Ganja? If Arran was a geographical region, wasn't he ruling over Arran?
  • I suggest using "Shaddadid dynasty" instead of "Shaddadids", otherwise the casual reader will think the Shaddadids were a people.
  • Again, more context needed. Dvin was a city, so perhaps be explicit and say "the autonomous lord of the city of Dvin"? And autonomous of whom?
  • comma after warrior, otherwise you have two unpunctuated "and"s
  • Perhaps refactor the description of the conflicts. Currently, it could be several conflicts with most of his neighbours all at the same time, or several conflicts, each of which was with one or more of his neighbours. Perhaps be more explicit. The lead isn't overly large, and more detail wouldn't hurt and would make it clearer.
  • suggest when the Byzantines later turned on him
  • were the offensives only against his capital, or against the lands he ruled more generally?
    • Well, Arran is not that big, and Ganja was the main military, political and economic centre. If Ganja fell, then Arran would fall or at least Shaddadid rule over it would collapse.
  • suggest and the rebels invited him...
  • suggest He undertook successful campaigns (if it was him), and either were exposed by his/their failure
  • suggest and extension of its control over
  • suggest linking vassal
  • no mention of his title of Emir
    • Well, "emir" in Arabic simply means "lord", "commander", "ruler", esp. for autonomous, hereditary rulers as opposed to appointed governors. In a medieval context, it is not a "title" in the western sense of the word, rather a job description. Any autonomous/dynastic Muslim ruler was "emir". He could claim additional titles, but "emir" is as generic as "ruler" or "lord".
  • If, as indicated in the description of the 13thC painting image, he is also referred to as "Aplesphares", then it should be used as an alt name and bolded in the lead, and should also be a redirect.
    • I don't think it really warrants a mention in the lede, I mean, it was a corruption of his actual name; and though Skylitzes is a major source for a few episodes of his life, Abu'l-Aswar's interactions with Byzantium were still rather peripheral. It does make sense to include the Greek name for Armenian rulers who received Byzantine titles and were quite enmeshed in the "Byzantine commonwealth", but that's about it. Good point about the redirect though.

Images

  • Per Nikki, I strongly suggest you translate the map, I can't follow it very well, and I know a bit of German.
    • I've begun it, but it is more "reconstruction" of the map since the png has diverged from the existing svg originals, so it will take some time.
  • File:The Byzantines are defeated by Aplesphares.jpg needs a PD-US tag of some sort, I believe.
  • the coin files need categorisation

Origin

  • If Münejjim Bashi is his Ottoman court title, perhaps he should be referred to as Müneccimbaşı Ahmed Dede bin Lutfallah, then an appropriate truncated name after initial introduction, per WP:LASTNAME?
    • In literature, he is simply referred to with his title; he is by far the best known of the holders and virtually the only one to warrant an individual mention AFAIK.
  • suggest use of {{Circa}} and {{Reign}}
    • Oooh, nice, I wasn't aware of the reign template. Thanks.

Lord of Dvin

  • suggest replacing "the latter's" with "his"
  • should it be brother then nephew?
  • suggest Sare for Ani with Abirat's supporters
  • a broad alliance against Abu'l-Aswar
  • suggest kept hostage
  • suggest requested Abu'l-Aswar vacate
  • the sentence beginning with "Surmari..." is far too long. Suggest breaking it up.
  • suggest the attack on Ganja
  • In the sentence starting with "Shortly after, in late 1048 or early 1049...", there are references to authors. These should be closely cited and referenced.
    • The authors and their views are mentioned by Minorsky in his analysis. I have referenced the relevant pages separately for easier verification.

Emir of Ganja

  • Is Abu'l-Hasan Lashkari a reference to Abu'l-Hasan Lashkari (II) previously mentioned in the Origin section? If so, I suggest consistent use of the full name and the "(II)"
    • Mmmm, the ordinal is in parenthesis because the names of Muslim rulers, at least for the period, prefer to distinguish by patronymics, honorifics, etc, rather than by ordinal. The full name is "Abu'l-Hasan Lashkari", and the ordinal is used by some modern authors to distinguish him, and is included only for completeness' sake. I feel that the identity is clear enough without having to repeat the ordinal.
  • if Abu Mansur was at Ganja, how was he deposed at Shamkur?
  • suggest after he had already spent eight years
  • should it be Emir Ja'far ibn Ali?
  • suggest that such action would disperse...
  • suggest until they were evicted
  • suggest you state where Gelati Monastery is
  • suggest deleting ", the new"
  • marched on to
  • daughter, her treasure
  • suggest Münejjim Bashi further states that instead of "According to Münejjim Bashi," for variation
  • I'd dispense with the parentheses (October 1065) and just put it in the running narrative
  • suggest captured and held by the Georgians
  • suggest he was himself deposed

That's me done. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 08:07, 13 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Minor comment to start: from the lede, "Abu'l-Aswar or Abu'l-Asvar Shavur ibn Fadl ibn Muhammad ibn Shaddad was the eighth ruler of the Shaddadids, ruling at Arran, with Ganja as his capital, from 1049 to 1067." Personally I find this to be rather a mouthful. I'm also curious about "ruling at Arran, with Ganja as his capital", should that not be simply "ruling Arran from his capital in Ganja"? Maury Markowitz (talk) 16:55, 13 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Maury Markowitz and thanks for your input! Good point, I've rephrased the opening of the lead a bit. Constantine ✍ 09:40, 17 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Question. Is this one headed to FAC, Constantine? - Dank (push to talk) 15:11, 27 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Dank. Yes it is. The article is as complete as it can get on the main subject matter, and if the reviewers here think that no further info should be added for context etc., then from the point of view of comprehensiveness there is nothing more to do. Prose has also been polished thanks to your and Peacemaker67's attentions, so that shouldn't be a problem. The only potential troublespot is the accuracy of the Caucasus map, which IMO is somewhat conjectural regarding the north Caucasian principalities. At a pinch I would replace it with a more generic and simple geographic map. Constantine ✍ 18:52, 27 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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